To Comply or not to Comply ? – The Scottish Football Monitor

To Comply or not to Comply ?

UEFA Club Licensing. – To Comply or not to Comply ?

On 16 April 2018 The UEFA Club Financial Control Body (CFCB) adjudicatory chamber took decisions in the cases of four clubs that had been referred to it by the CFCB chief investigator, concerning the non-fulfilment of the club licensing criteria defined in the UEFA Club Licensing and Financial Fair Play Regulations.

Such criteria must be complied with by the clubs in order to be granted the licence required to enter the UEFA club competitions.

The cases of two clubs::

Olympique des Alpes SA (Sion Switzerland )

and

FC Irtysh  (Kazakhstan) 

are of particular interest to those following the events under which the SFA awarded a UEFA License to Rangers FC in 2011 currently under investigation by the SFA Compliance Officer because

  1. The case documentation tell us how UEFA wish national associations to apply UEFA FFP rules
  2. The cases  tell us what might have happened to Rangers  FC in 2012 had they not gone into liquidation and as a consequence avoided the same type of sanctions that UEFA applied to Sion and Irtysh.

 

FC Sion  (Olympique des Alpes SA)

Here we are told how the Swiss FL and then the UEFA CFCB acted in respect of FC Sion in 2017 where a misleading statement was made in the Sion UEFA licensing application.

Full details can be read at

http://tiny.cc/y6sxsy

 

but this is a summary.

In April 2017 the Swiss FL (SFL) granted a licence to Sion FC but indicated that a Disciplinary case was pending.

In July 2017 the CFCB, as part of their licence auditing programme,  carried out a compliance audit on 3 clubs to determine if licences had been properly awarded. Sion was one of those clubs.

The subsequent audit by Deloitte LLP discovered Sion had an overdue payable on a player, amounting to €950,000, owed to another football club (FC Sochaux ) at 31st March 2017 as a result of a transfer undertaken by Sion before 31st December 2016, although the €950,000 was paid in early June 2017.

Deloitte produced a draft report of their findings that was passed to SFL and Sion for comment on factual accuracy and comment on the findings. Sion responded quickly enabling Deloitte to present a final report to the CFCB Investigation Unit. In response to the Deloitte final report Sion stated:

“il apparaît aujourd’hui qu’il existait bel et bien un engagement impayé découlant d’une activité de transfert. Ce point est admis” translated as

“it now appears that there was indeed an outstanding commitment arising from transfer activity. This is admitted”

What emerged as the investigation proceeded was that the Swiss FL Licensing Committee, after granting the license in April and as a result of a Sochaux complaint of non-payment to FIFA, had reason to refer Sion’s application to their Disciplinary Commission in May 2017 with regard to the submission of potentially misleading information by FC Sion to the SFL on 7th April 2017 as part of its licensing documentation.

Sion had declared

“Written confirmation: no overdue payables arising from transfer activities”, signed by the Club’s president, stating that as at 31 March 2017 there were no overdue payables towards other football clubs. In particular, the Club indicated that the case between FC Sion and FC Sochaux regarding the transfer of the player Ishmael Yartey was still under dispute.

The SFL Disciplinary Commission came to the conclusion that FC Sion had no intention to mislead the SFL, but indeed submitted some incorrect licensing documentation; the SFL Disciplinary Commission further confirmed that the total amount of €950,000 had been paid by the Club to FC Sochaux on 7 June 2017. Because of the inaccurate information submitted, the SFL Disciplinary Commission decided to impose a fine of CHF 8,000 on the Club.

Whilst this satisfied the SFL Disciplinary process the CFCB deemed it not enough to justify the granting of the licence as UEFA intended their FFP rules to be applied.

Sion provided the CFCB with a number of reasons on the basis of which no sanction should be imposed. In particular, the Club admitted that there was an overdue payable as at 31 March 2017, but stated that the mistake in the document dated 7 April 2017 was the result of a misinterpretation by the club’s responsible person for dealing with the licence (the “Club’s licence manager”), who is not a lawyer. The Club affirmed that it never had the intention to conceal the information and had provisioned the amount due for payment and that, in any case, it has already been sanctioned by the SFL for providing the wrong information.

The CFCB Investigation Unit accepted that the Sion application, although inaccurate, was a one off misrepresentation and not a forgery, (as in intended to deceive ) but that nevertheless an overdue payable did exist at 31st March and a licence should not have been granted.

Based on their findings, the CFCB Chief Investigator decided to refer the case to the CFCB Adjudicatory Chamber and suggested a disciplinary measure to be imposed on FC Sion by the CFCB Adjudicatory Chamber, such measure consisting of a fine of €235,000, corresponding to the UEFA Revenues the Club gained by participating in the 2017/2018 UEFA Europa League.

The CFCB Investigatory Chamber submitted that it was  appropriate to impose a fine corresponding to all the UEFA revenues the Club gained by participating in the competition considering the fact that FC Sion should not have been admitted to the competition for failing to meet one of its admission criteria.

 

The Adjudicatory Chambers took all the circumstances (see paras 91 to 120 at http://tiny.cc/i8sxsy ) into consideration and reached the following key decisions.

  1. FC Sion failed to satisfy the requirements of Article 49(1) of the CL&FFP Regulations and it obtained the licence issued by the SFL not in accordance with the CL&FFP Regulations.
  2. FC Sion breached Articles 13(1) and 43(1)(i) of the CL&FFP Regulations. (Documents complete and correct)
  3. To exclude FC Sion from participating in the next UEFA club competition for which it would otherwise qualify in the next two (2) seasons (i.e. the 2018/19 and 2019/20).
  4. To impose a fine of two hundred and thirty five thousand Euros (€235,000) on FC Sion.
  5. FC Sion is to pay three thousand Euros (€3,000) towards the costs of these proceedings.

Comment in respect of the award of a UEFA Licence in 2011 to Rangers FC.

It is now public knowledge that an actual liability of tax due before 31stDecember 2010 towards HMRC, was admitted by Rangers FC before 31st March 2011.

This liability was described as “potential” in Rangers Interim accounts audited by Grant Thornton.

“Note 1: The exceptional item reflects a provision for a potential tax liability in relation to a Discounted Option Scheme associated with player contributions between 1999 and 2003. A provision for interest of £0.9m has also been included within the interest charge.”

The English Oxford Dictionary definition of potential is:

Having or showing the capacity to develop into something in the future.

Which was not true as the liability had already been “developed” so could not be potential.

This was repeated by Chairman Alistair Johnson in his covering Interim Accounts statement

“The exceptional item reflects a provision for a potential tax liability in relation to a Discounted Option Scheme associated with player contributions between 1999 and 2003. “  where he also added

“Discussions are continuing with HMRC to establish a resolution to the assessments raised.”

This could be taken as disputing the liability but In fact the resolution to the assessments raised would have been payment of the actual liability, something that never happened.

In the Sion case it was accepted the misleading statement was a one off misrepresentation, but at the monitoring stages at June 2011 in Ranger’s case the status of the liability continued to be misrepresented and in September the continuing discussions reason was repeated, along with a claim of an instalment paid whose veracity is highly questionable.

The Swiss FL Licensing Committee did at least refer the case to their Disciplinary Committee when they realised a misleading statement might have been made. The SFA however in August 2011, when Sherriff Officers called at Ibrox for payment of the overdue tax , did no such thing and pulled up the drawbridge for six years, one that the Compliance Officer is now finally charged with lowering.

 


 

The case of FC Irtysh of Kazakhstan is set out in full at http://tiny.cc/y9sxsy  and is a bit more straightforward but is nevertheless useful to compare with events in 2011 in Scotland.

Unlike Rangers FC , FC Irtysh properly disclosed that they had an overdue payable to the Kazakhstan tax authorities at the monitoring point at 30th June 2017. This caused the CFCB Investigatory Unit to seek further information with regard to the position at 31st March

It transpired that Irtysh had declared an overdue payable at 31st March but cited their financial position (awaiting sponsor money) as a reason for non payment to the Kazakhstan FA who accepted it and granted the licence. The outstanding tax was paid in September 2107.

The outcome of the CFCB Investigation was a case put to the CFCB Adjudicatory Chamber  who agreed with the CFCB Investigation Unit that a licence should not have been granted and recommended that Irtysh be fined the equivalent of the UEFA prize money, (that had been withheld in any case whilst CFCB investigated.)

The CFCB Adjudicatory Chamber however decided that a fine was not sufficient in sporting deterrent terms and ruled that:

 

  1.  FC Irtysh failed to satisfy the requirements of Article 50bis(1) of the CL&FFP Regulations and it obtained the licence issued by the FFK not in accordance with the CL&FFP Regulations.
  2. To withhold four hundred and forty thousand Euros (€440,000) corresponding to the UEFA revenues FC Irtysh gained by participating in the 2017/2018 UEFA Europa League.
  3. To exclude FC Irtysh from participating in the next UEFA club competition for which it would otherwise qualify in the next three (3) seasons (i.e. the 2018/19, 2019/20 and 2020/21 seasons). This sanction is deferred for a probationary period of (3) three years. This exclusion must be enforced in case the Club participates again in a UEFA club competition having not fulfilled the licence criteria required to obtain the UEFA licence in accordance with the CL&FFP Regulations.
  4. FC Irtysh is to pay three thousand Euros (€3,000) towards the costs of these proceedings. “

 

The deferral was because unlike Rangers FC,  FC Irtysh had properly disclosed to the licensor the correct & accurate financial information required, so the exclusion was deferred for a probationary period of (3) years.

 

Comment in respect of the award of a UEFA Licence in 2011 to Rangers FC.

From the foregoing it could be deduced that had Rangers FC qualified for the Champions League (or European League) and not gone bust as a result and so not entered liquidation BUT it became public knowledge by 2012 that a licence had been wrongly and possibly fraudulently granted then

  1. Rangers would have been fined the equivalent of their earnings from their participation in the UEFA competitions in 2011
  2. At least a two year ban from UEFA Competitions would have been imposed, but more likely three in view of repeated incorrect statements.
  3. The consequences of both would have been as damaging for Rangers survival as the real life consequences of losing to Malmo and Maribor in the qualifying rounds of the Champions and European Leagues.

Karma eh!

Interestingly in the UEFA COMPLIANCE AND INVESTIGATION ACTIVITY REPORT 2015 – 2017 , the CFCB investigatory chamber recommended that both the Kazakhstan FA and Swiss FA as licensors

“pay particular attention to the adequate disclosure of the outstanding amounts payable towards other football clubs, in respect of employees and towards social/tax authorities, which must be disclosed separately;

Would the same recommendation apply to the Scottish FA with regard to their performance in 2011 and will the  SFA responses thereafter to shareholders in a member club be examined for compliance with best governance practice by the SFA Compliance Officer investigating the processing of the UEFA Licence in 2011?

This would be a welcome step in fully restoring trust in the SFA.

Auldheid

Auldheid

Celtic fan from Glasgow living mostly in Spain. A contributor to several websites, discussion groups and blogs, and a member of the Resolution 12 Celtic shareholders' group. Committed to sporting integrity, good governance, and the idea that football is interdependent. We all need each other in the game.

4,355 Comments
  1. TheLawMan2


    Leggoman is another complete idiot of a man assuming you are referring to David Legatt. 

    1872 have not got a £2m loan. Step back and ask yourself who would give someone a loan that size with no security.

    It’s a complete non starter.

    View Comment
  2. JustTheFacts


    The question is surely not why they can charge Rangers but how?

    Which I think is and will be the King defence.
    “Not Rangers brother move along” 🤫

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  3. Dunderheid


    John Clark @ 13:07 said: ‘In fairness to him, and for those who may not have clicked on the link to the story in the ‘Times’, the by-line credits Michael Grant, of this parish.’

    Yes, JC, I did notice that it was (‘Aberdeen Fan’) Michael Grant who broke the news.

    The same Michael Grant who penned this sycophantic mince about Campbell Ogilvie, back in November 2013: 
    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13082080.Ogilvie_emerges_from_the_shadows/?ref=arc

    I suppose it would have looked bizarre (or even ‘suspicious’) if such news had been given first to a non-Scottish hack, albeit one employed outwith Scotland.

    View Comment
  4. Dunderheid


    … back in November 2012 (not 2013) 

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  5. JustTheFacts


    I know this is off topic (but it’s kinda on topic if you read his latest blog)Out of Interest how much does it cost to run a WordPress Blog?
    Seems to me that no matter how many apparent subs yer man JJ recieves he is always just near the brink money wise?
    One would imagine that when he took the decision to start his own blog that he was fully aware of the expense (if any)?

    The reason I ask is he tends to quote this site a bit so I thought I wo der how much horse lines of text set him back?

    On roughly the same thread of thought this post was brought to you from my Renton Safehouse which is currently running low on empty ginger bottles so please once again could you

    Give gingerously.

    Thanks in advance

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  6. JustTheFacts


    Jesus Slypdexic Dave strikes again.
    Cracked screen issue excuse the state of that last effort.

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  7. Allyjambo

    Allyjambo


    Just a wee thought. The members of the concert part can’t/dare not buy any more shares. Club 1872 can buy shares, but don’t have enough money to buy sufficient for the concert party/Dave King’s purposes. Solution? Someone (King?) lends Club 1872 £2m, all neatly tied up with security that leaves the Club 1872 members* paying back the lender should it all go pear shaped!

    *  I don’t know how it would come about, but If it is possible, then I am sure that, in the small print, the members would have accepted responsibility for Club 1872’s debts.

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  8. ThomTheThim

    ThomTheThim


    Is the alleged Club1872 loan another smokescreen to disguise the source of cash passing through Ibrox?
    I am sure I am not alone in suspecting that not all money streams are pukka and traceable.
    Regarding the C O’s resignation, it could be either a case of internal pressure, due to actually finding a case to present, which did not please is bosses, or, on the off chance that the Inquiry will find the case proven, the backlash from the followers of the clubs,(5WA) under scrutiny.
    Possibly, he has fulfilled his remit, by being the one in place to examine the documentation which was submitted to the SFA.

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  9. upthehoops


    HOMUNCULUSJUNE 12, 2018 at 14:18

    Did Fergus McCann not do something similar at the flotation. Provide the fans with interest free loans to allow them to buy the shares in the club. I’m not sure how the mechanics worked, and it was probably him personally or a third party lender but I do recall something like that happening. The supporters / shareholders then repaid the loans.

    ==========================

    You are correct. When Celtic were floated as a PLC after McCann took over there was finance available to provide loans to fans to buy shares.  

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  10. Billydug

    Billydug


    HELPUMOOTJUNE 12, 2018 at 13:4
    Have got a link to the posts by Leggoman and Lawman.

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  11. bfbpuzzled


    So Club1872 might be doing what is traditional with The Ibrox Entities borrowing without security or with security in name only(Ibrox entity shares) using money that they hope to get sometime in the future from fickle fandom hoping that the Ibrox Entity gets into Europa league stages 3 times in five years and hoping that they will cause Celtic to collapse by winning a league title and hoping to get champions league group stage money.
    I hope that Clyde will barnstorm their way through the leagues in the next five years to become world club champions after multiple wins against the champions of Spain Italy and Germany. 
    One of the above is less likely than the other but not by much.

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  12. easyJambo


    On a different topic.

    Does anyone know what the SFSA have been doing this year.  There was a bit of a fanfare about the results of their survey last year, but since then virtually nothing on governance or any other topic that they campaigned on.

    Their twitter feed seems more interested in promoting Nutmeg magazine, a world cup quiz and cheer leading Scotland’s women’s team.

    It gives all the appearances of having diminished into another talking shop that is unwilling or unable to challenge the authorities. 

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  13. torrejohnbhoy


    Talking of Club 1872 reminded me that a new  “totally independent” fan group,Follow Rangers,was set up to buy shares in a holding Company just a few months ago.
    Good to see that it’s membership after just over 3 months in existence has reached an impressive 32!.

    http://www.followrangers.com/

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  14. Billy Boyce


    upthehoops June 12, 2018 at 15:43
    HOMUNCULUSJUNE 12, 2018 at 14:18
    Did Fergus McCann not do something similar at the flotation. Provide the fans with interest free loans to allow them to buy the shares in the club. I’m not sure how the mechanics worked, and it was probably him personally or a third party lender but I do recall something like that happening. The supporters / shareholders then repaid the loans.
    ==========================
    You are correct. When Celtic were floated as a PLC after McCann took over there was finance available to provide loans to fans to buy shares
    ==========================
    UTH
    If my memory serves me correctly, Fergus McCann made an arrangement with the Cooperative Bank that it should provide loans for the Celtic fans at attractive rates to facilitate the purchase of their shares.  The bank did so on the basis that it was to become the Club’s bank.  However, unlike the King scenario above, Celtic plc had absolutely no part in the financing of these loans.  That was entirely the responsibility of the bank who applied the normal credit-worthy checks to the applicants.  Fergus also arranged with the Coop Bank to produce a Celtic version of its credit card.  The bank was more than happy to do so as it brought in much new business and, no doubt, the Club received a commission on the deal.  

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  15. Homunculus

    Homunculus


    Billy Boyce
    June 12, 2018 at 16:36
    =================================

    Thanks for that, it makes absolute sense that it was the Cooperative. As you say Celtic moved their banking facilities there, away from Bank of Scotland. Which made sense what with the BoS trying to prettty much kill the club.  

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  16. wottpi


    I note we are all getting excited with regard to the Club 18-30 funding.

    Yes it should all be within the rules etc but let’s face it many on here have been saying for a long time now that the fans ‘extra cash’ was in the board’s sights and it is possibly the last trip to the well.

    Maybe it will all work out and Gerrard builds an all conquering team, becomes the next Alex Ferguson and commits himself to T’Rangers for life. 

    However the current reality for the club with a rookie manager is one where no one is interested in putting in Sugar Daddy quantities of money.

    The existing soft loaners will be running out of spare cash and DCK cannot be relied on as its a different story from week to week.

    At some point he was always going to try and use the Club 1872 money to keep the wagon rolling along.

    Its all a big gamble but this time it is all solely in the hands of supposed RRM –  lock stock and barrel.

    The only way the club can secure a ‘modicum of success’ is to significantly outspend everyone else in the domestic level.

    In terms of the league I can’t see T’Rangers being anywhere near catching Celtic who I expect to push on. That leaves second place and cup runs.

    The likes of Lennon, McInnes, Levein and Clarke are more than a match for the novice Gerrard if they can put decent squads together and the Ibrox team is packed full of the existing overpaid players, journeymen and youngsters on loan.

    Folks seem to forget that last season Heart’s Connor Randall was a 22 year old Liverpool player out on loan. Good work ethic, committed, willing to play in a number of positions for the cause, a solid 24 games but nothing special. 

    On the European Stage it won’t take very long until they are found wanting by coming up against better and richer squads and its back to having to spend more money to meets their aims.

    The outgoings will remain higher than the income and off we go again but next time round the well will most likely be dry. So its an insolvency event of austerity.

    Life down Govan way is  still going to be a continual struggle and juggling the books for some time to come.

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  17. Cluster One

    Cluster One


    Attachment

    This caught my eye june 13,2012
    Campbell Ogilvie.
    He will be judged when and if HMRC return verdict on the big tax case.
    ————
    Was any judgment passed down on Mr ogilvie?
    And who was to pass this judgment?

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  18. jimbo

    jimbo


    Thelawman2

    I don’t know where you belong in social media.

    The *Rangers guys don’t like you because you speak the truth about some aspects/history.

    You demonstrate a certain amount of agreement on here.

    You seem to rely on small detail.  And ignore the big picture.  (Or maybe wish it wasn’t there).

    You come over as a descent person.

    Where do you go?

    View Comment
  19. tony

    tony


    JIMBO
    You come over as a descent person.
    Where do you go?
    downwards i presume 

    View Comment
  20. ThomTheThim

    ThomTheThim


    Is there any significance in the Judicial Inquiry being conducted during the World Cup?
    Excuse my ignorance of the format, but are witnesses required, or is it just a case of poring over available documents and the panel forming an opinion of culpability or not?

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  21. upthehoops


    DUNDERHEIDJUNE 12, 2018 at 14:31

    John Clark @ 13:07 said: ‘In fairness to him, and for those who may not have clicked on the link to the story in the ‘Times’, the by-line credits Michael Grant, of this parish.’

    Yes, JC, I did notice that it was (‘Aberdeen Fan’) Michael Grant who broke the news.

    The same Michael Grant who penned this sycophantic mince about Campbell Ogilvie, back in November 2013: http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13082080.Ogilvie_emerges_from_the_shadows/?ref=arc

    =====================

    The same Michael Grant who said he hoped BDO won the supreme court case, just because he could not be bothered listening to other fans complaining. Then when they lost he immediately penned an article stressing how Rangers EBT scheme was not unlawful. He may well be an Aberdeen fan but he seems more than happy to see his club sh*t upon from a great height. He clearly has no interest in sporting integrity either in my view.

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  22. John Clark


    DunderheidJune 12, 2018 at 14:31
    ‘..Yes, JC, I did notice that it was (‘Aberdeen Fan’) Michael Grant who broke the news.’
    upthehoopsJune 12, 2018 at 20:18
    ‘..The same Michael Grant who said he hoped BDO won the supreme court case, ..’
    __________________
    Just to clarify, gentlemen both,I hold no brief for Michael Grant! 
    But I do try to remember to cite the name of any journalist (or other source)that I quote or whose material I have read and referred to.08

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  23. JustTheFacts


    Interesting that the Co-Op Bank should make an appearance  today because as of July 2019 Celtic will have made our last payment towards the Long Term Loan with the Co-Op.(If they don’t clear it earlier that is).
    Debt Free.
    Now consider the situation where Celtic negotiate our way through the Champions League Qualifiers and then sell Dembele in January?
    Mind The Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap.

    View Comment
  24. jimbo

    jimbo


    Serious question.

    Do you any in depth people know, in reality, how many people in the SFA are Masons?  Just a simple question. 

    You know the people in power, elected or employed.

    What is the percentage?  

    Being a Mason is not illegal so I expect an honest and open reply.

    Being a Mason didn’t used to be anti Celtic in my day, so I can ask this honestly because of new found concerns I am aware of.

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  25. upthehoops


    JOHN CLARKJUNE 12, 2018 at 20:44

    Just to clarify, gentlemen both,I hold no brief for Michael Grant! 

    ==========================

    No probs, John, I never thought you did in any case. To be honest, reading his stuff on Twitter, and from what I’ve heard from him on Radio Scotland it strikes me you would have little truck with him in any case. He seems deep rooted in the establishment with no obvious desire to see things change.  

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  26. jimbo

    jimbo


    Imagine what it might feel like to be Lawman.  Hated by all sides.

    I honestly don’t know why he comes on here time and again trying to win a hopeless argument.

    Perhaps we don’t know enough about him, and I mean that with greatest respect.

    Lawman,  from your last pal on here, give up.  Find a new hobby.   You can always PM me for support.

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  27. TheLawMan2


    Thanks for the concern Jimbo but trust me there really is no need.  I’m certainly not hated on Rangers Social media anymore. People had their suspicion which I can understand as I was portraying a negative picture. Pretty much every one to a man apologised and accepted I had been right all along about Whyte.

    Whilst most may not like what I say about King, they in the main respect it and ask probing questions to try to understand rather than default to “troll” “ban him” he’s wrong just coz we are right”

    They respectfully agree to disagree on issues.

    As for masons in the sfa, what does it matter? For every fan on here who thinks the SFA all support Rangers I can show you the same number of Rangers fans who think the SFA and SPFL do what Peter Lawwell tells them to do.

    Same with the media.  You all believe the press only write positive stuff about Rangers. Rangers fans think it’s only negative. 

    So in all of the above situations, either all of you on here are wrong or all the Rangers fans are wrong OR both youse and the Rangers fans are wrong.

    My money is on the last option of the 3.

    Football fans are blinkered. I’m not. I speak my own thoughts no matter what side they fall on.

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  28. bigboab1916

    bigboab1916


    Just a wee reminder what the guy who has jumped ship was discovering or would be discovering, just a reminder as the papers seems to skip over the points and the actors in the play and tend to misrepresent the issues, to suit, as the old saying goes 2 b 1 ask 1.
    http://etims.net/?p=12758&nbsp

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  29. Homunculus

    Homunculus


    THELAWMAN2
    JUNE 12, 2018 at 22:06

    Football fans are blinkered. I’m not. I speak my own thoughts no matter what side they fall on.
    ===========================================================

    That’s what makes you better than mere blinkered football fans.

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  30. TheLawMan2


    Homunculus. If you(royal you) are a blinkered fan who can’t say anything bad about your club or anything good.about Rangers or vice versa then yes I am better than that as are all people who can upset both sets of fans with their views. 

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  31. Homunculus

    Homunculus


    THELAWMAN2
    JUNE 12, 2018 at 23:09

    Homunculus. If you(royal you) are a blinkered fan who can’t say anything bad about your club or anything good.about Rangers or vice versa then yes I am better than that as are all people who can upset both sets of fans with their views. 

    =================================================

    Oh you are definitely better than me, I have been able to tell that by the quality of your posts. I am as you say a mere blinkered football fan, you are someone who speaks your own thoughts. 

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  32. jimbo

    jimbo


    Women’s football.

    It really seems to be taking off.

    I’ve never met a girl footballer.

    There was a series of programmes on R4 Extra about life in Britain during the first WW.  The girls were trying to get a game and be taken seriously.  I think they have finally managed.  Good luck to them.

    (and Partick Thistle)  Men or otherwise.

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  33. TheLawMan2


    Just for the record I didn’t say I was better than you.

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  34. Helpumoot


    The Herald is reporting that Hector has won court costs for the big tax case against BDO, for £240k. They had originally sought £320k but it was reduced after negotiations. They are also reporting – contrary to what is being claimed elsewhere – that Hector hasn’t received a single penny of the £72 million in unpaid tax and interest owed to them by the former club (they actually say “liquidated company” but we all know what they mean.)
    BDO had agreed to pay an interim dividend of around 4 pence in the pound to unsecured creditors – £3.7 million to Hector – but apparently not one thin dime of that money has appeared in Hector’s account.
    There’s a shock.
    (The £72 million in unpaid tax (and interest) did not give Rangers any sporting advantage on the football pitch. No siree! The EBTs paid to Graeme Sounness and Walter Smith while they were employed by clubs other than Rangers had nothing to do with the transfers of Boumsong and Ball, Ogilvie’s was just beer money and everyone should just move on and stop calling what happened the biggest fraud in European football history.)

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  35. fan of football


    THELAWMAN2JUNE 12, 2018 at 22:06

    Pretty much every one to a man apologised and accepted I had been right all along about Whyte.
    ============================================================
    With this in mind 
    what do you think of D Murray’s contribution in his time at ibrox 
    and also do you think that EBTs were legitimate loans or payments for kicking a football about the above park 

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  36. scottc

    scottc


    Jimbo, I know several masons but no Orange Lodge members. They’re not the same thing. The OO is, remember, a ‘masonic-like’ organisation. Of the masons, I know, neither Celtic nor Rangers ever seems to cross their minds

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  37. slimjim


    HELPUMOOT 06.50
    Not sure if already posted but the latest report from BDO.
    https://www.bdo.co.uk/getmedia/47092375-62e2-4389-a62b-0ecb735e38dc/RFC-Annual-Progress-report-to-30-April-2018.pdf.aspx

    View Comment
  38. Helpumoot


    ScottC
    There certainly is a debate to be had on the role the ‘Scottish’ Masonic Lodge has played in this mess. Nearly all the main protagonists who stand accused share this in common. The banks. The judiciary, (LNS and the FTTT decision.) The top positions in Scottish football governance over the years have been overwhelmingly filled by masons. Rangers board members – 100% masonic. The refereeing fraternity. Editors in the Press. PR men.
    I’m guessing that the Masonic Lodge in Scotland is far happier being connected in the public eye with Rabbie Burns and haggis, than with the shameful goings on at Ibrox. I often wondered if some really, really high up worshipful masters might be getting a bit fatigued at the ‘good name’ of the lodge being continually sullied by these peepil.

    View Comment
  39. Billydug

    Billydug


    Tweet

    The Clumpany
    @TheClumpany
    “No terms of the deal with Hummel have been revealed”. Imagine if the Easdales/ Llambias had done this. There would most likely be a meltdown in Sevconia…Daily Record Sport
    @Record_SportRangers sell training ground naming rights to Hummel (link: http://dlyr.ec/2d23Hv) dlyr.ec/2d23Hv

    8:43 am · 13 Jun 2018

    View Comment
  40. jockybhoy


    Agree with Scott C – Orange Lodge and “regular” masonic lodges are not the same thing. My Brazilian wife was confused when I was banging on about masons being anti-Catholic and she said there were loads in Brazil where they were viewed more like the Rotary Club. Ditto a mate who was in a lodge down here in Englandshire, but when he was talking about inclusiveness he was proud they “even had black” members – I pointed out the inherent issue with that statement and we didn’t talk about it until he announced he’d left.
    However I think in Scotland both the politics/religious history and the size of the business class mean masons have a more insidious reputation…

    View Comment
  41. easyJambo


    Another wasted trip to the CoS this morning for JC, myself and a couple of court journalists who were looking to attend this morning’s BDO v D&P action.  The hearing has been postponed until 27 July.

    No-one seems to know when the next hearings in the H&J (Sevco 5088) v BDO, or the Whitehouse & Clark v Police Scotland & the Lord Advocate cases will be held either.

    View Comment
  42. Homunculus

    Homunculus


    Billydug
    June 13, 2018 at 08:49
    ==============================

    Its all very well Hummel buying the naming rights, however i suspect the Rangers support will just continue using it’s real and traditional name.

    Murray Park.

    View Comment
  43. justbecauseyoureparanoid


    HOMUNCULUSJUNE 13, 2018 at 11:02
    Its all very well Hummel buying the naming rights, however i suspect the Rangers support will just continue using it’s real and traditional name.
    Murray Park.

    Agree entirely. It is for this reason that I would have no concerns whatsoever about a megabucks naming rights deal for Celtic Park.

    View Comment
  44. Higgy's Shoes


    Breaking news

    Spain sack their manager 2 days before World Cup starts.
    ….for not telling the footballing authorities he was going to Real Madrid
    after World Cup.

    Incompetent as they are, I dont think even our lot would be so stupid.

    Then again…
    HS

    View Comment
  45. JustTheFacts


    Any truth in the rumour that HMRC have offered to sponsor Celtic Park in honour of the guys who highlighted the goings on at Ibrox under David Murray during the Asterix/Cheating Years?
    I gather for £20m a year Celtic Park will be known commercially as the Inland Revenue Arena.
    Just throwing that out there…

    View Comment
  46. bfbpuzzled


    In certain parts of Scotland Masons are a subset of Rangers supporters.
    Orangism has nothing to do with Masonry in theory but there is an overlap in memberships.
    One of the major grounds why Catholicism has so thoroughly rejected Masonry is indifferentism- that any belief in a supreme being is equivalent to any other, as far as I understand it Masonry requires belief in some supreme being. There is also a gnostic element in Masonry
    I understand that in many parts of the world Masonry is seen as one among many charitable organisations with no potentially sinister undertones. In parts of Scotland the charity is buried in the perceptions of or actual societal pauchling for self advancement. There are cases I know of where to be a Church Elder requires being a mason. 

    Lawman -your post of 23.09 last evening is a procession of non sequiturs- on your basis a graffiti wielding vandal is better than me because he can upset two sets of people really?

    View Comment
  47. JustTheFacts


    I don’t see why folk have to get personal on these sites?
    I mean to say the actions of Football Clubs are beyond the control of most if not all fans.
    We seem to be at odds with the result of those actions and how they are perceived.
    Given the fact emotions are and can often get in the way of rational thinking then I don’t think we should be over critical of a guy coming on and defending what he sees as his Club?
    If you don’t feel bad for genuine Rangers fans then I think mibees your own feelings are getting in the way of rational thinking.
    Had it been our own Clubs then I think we would be more than gutted.
    Crack on Lawman defend what you believe to be right.
    Even though I think it’s Raphael Sheidt I won’t stop you defending what you perceive to be the truth?
    After all it is only Football.

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  48. John Clark


    “When you come to work for the SFA, it’s a great job. It’s a great team to join, a fresh new team that’s being developed at the SFA.
    Whoever comes in, he or she will be joining that fresh new team and I think it’s a great opportunity for someone to develop their career”

    So says Mike Mulraney. (in the ‘Scotsman’ today.

    The main Board: Macrae……. appointed 08.12.1992 ( and currently President)
                             Petrie  ……         ”       01.07. 2007 (  ”         ” Vice-President)
                             Mulraney ..        ”       02.08. 2016
                             Doncaster          ”       13.03. 2018 (but on the SPFL board!)
                             Barton               ”        08/12/2011
                              Stewart (non-exec)     08.12. 2017
                               Hughes (non -exec, about to stand down)
                               Maxwell (CEO)  ”     21.05. 2018 

    I would hardly agree that that constitutes a ‘fresh team’. The President and Vice-president  have been in office at the SFA for a number of years over the ‘saga’ period,  Barton from 2011, and Doncaster ( as CEO of the then SPL) from day one.

    And one assumes that Bryson is still operating in some SFA capacity, and presumably other senior employee posts will not be in fresh hands to any great extent.

    The ‘team’ looks to be substantially the same as the one that landed the SFA in the mess it is in, and which has continued  to avoid taking the steps absolutely required to restore its Integrity as a governance body.

    View Comment
  49. Homunculus

    Homunculus


    HelpumootJune 13, 2018 at 08:16

     There certainly is a debate to be had on the role the ‘Scottish’ Masonic Lodge has played in this mess. Nearly all the main protagonists who stand accused share this in common. The banks. The judiciary, (LNS and the FTTT decision.) The top positions in Scottish football governance over the years have been overwhelmingly filled by masons. Rangers board members – 100% masonic. The refereeing fraternity. Editors in the Press. PR men.

    =====================================

    Forgive me but how do you know this.

    I’m not saying you are right, or wrong, I have no idea.

    It’s just that you are stating it as if it is a fact, and I’m intrigued how you know it to be one.

    View Comment
  50. Ex Ludo

    Ex Ludo


    https://goo.gl/images/xcqUag
    This link may help Homunculus. I’ve not copied the image as it may not pass moderation.

    View Comment
  51. Higgy's Shoes


    As BPuzzled says, to be a mason one has to believe in one God (Monotheism).

    Therefore Christians (Of all sects), Jews and Muslims theoretically could join the Masons.
    Hindus inter alia could not.

    HS

    View Comment
  52. Homunculus

    Homunculus


    Ex Ludo
    June 13, 2018 at 13:04
    ====================================

    I have to say I’m not seeing that as definitive evidence that all bankers, judiciary, top people in Scottish football governance, referees, editors and PR men are masons.

    View Comment
  53. slimjim


    HOMUNCULUS 11,02.
    The training centre has been referred to by those of us who attend there on a regular basis simply as Auchenhowie for a number of years now.
    Very few fans i know refer to it as MP. 

    View Comment
  54. Billydug

    Billydug


    Attachment

    Screenshot 1

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  55. Billydug

    Billydug


    Attachment

    Screenshot 2

    View Comment
  56. jean7brodie

    jean7brodie


    HomunculusJune 13, 2018 at 13:24
    I have to say I’m not seeing that as definitive evidence that all bankers, judiciary, top people in Scottish football governance, referees, editors and PR men are masons.
    ______________________________________________________________
    Correct. And we’ll never have any evidence because it’s all a secret. 09

    View Comment
  57. Helpumoot


    Homunculus
    Perhaps check out Paul Larkins books and videos. 

    View Comment
  58. Billydug

    Billydug


    PL has just released 3 to view for free on Vimeo. Anyone but Celtic, The Asterisk Year and and another I think.

    View Comment
  59. Homunculus

    Homunculus


    Helpumoot
    June 13, 2018 at 14:57

    I assume you mean that he has evidence that all bankers, judiciary, top people in Scottish football governance, referees, editors and PR men are masons.

    I find that unlikely I really do. For instance the previous two Lord Advocates have been Elish Angiolini and Frank Mulholland. I don’t think either is a freemason, for various reasons.

    I also would find it extraordinary to believe that everyone at the top of the other professions is also a freemason. Perhaps in the past, and perhaps it is ongoing to a certain extent but I really think your contention is a bit over the top. If for no other reason that women now occupy far more senior places in the professions you mention.

    I’m afraid we are verging into the realms of the Speculative Society being in actuality the Brotherhood of the Bell here. Yes we still have secret societies and yes they still have an influence in all walks of life and yes there is still nepotism but I genuinely do not believe it is as bad as it used to be.

    View Comment
  60. TheLawMan2


    FAN OF FOOTBALLJUNE 13, 2018 at 06:54
    and also do you think that EBTs were legitimate loans or payments for kicking a football about the above park 
    ________________________________________________________________

    I believe they were a legitimate attempt at Tax avoidance yeah.  As ive said a few times, they were put in front of me as an Exec and a NED across many companies as they were the hot thing amongst Tax advisors at the time.  EBTs were very common.

    I always voted against them and spoke out quite vociferously about them as i felt they were too high a risk.

    View Comment
  61. Billydug

    Billydug


    HOMUNCULUSJUNE 13, 2018 at 16:19
    Maybe not recent times but within most of our lifetimes I would reckon a fair percentage of powerful positions in Scotland would have them.

    View Comment
  62. TheLawMan2


    BFBPUZZLEDJUNE 13, 2018 at 11:44
    There are cases I know of where to be a Church Elder requires being a mason. 
    Lawman -your post of 23.09 last evening is a procession of non sequiturs- on your basis a graffiti wielding vandal is better than me because he can upset two sets of people really?

    ________________________________________________________

    Can you tell me which church this is please.  I suspect it is utter nonsense.  

    As for the 2nd part, you need to understand the context rather than extend it to a non related incident.  To be clear.  As a Rangers supporter who is known to call out our deficiencies on and off the park whilst upsetting fellow fans at the same time, then there can be no doubt, I can be taken at better face value than the guy who says everything is A1 rosy, we are still better than Celtic, we have loads of money and King is the man.

    I can do all of the above whilst elsewhere still defending my team if i feel they deserve defended.

    Quite what a graffiti artist has to do with all of that, i dont know. 

    View Comment
  63. TheLawMan2


    JUSTTHEFACTSJUNE 13, 2018 at 11:58
    Well said and thanks JTF.  Did you get my message ?

    View Comment
  64. fan of football


    THELAWMAN2JUNE 13, 2018 at 16:47
     I believe they were a legitimate attempt at Tax avoidance yeah
    thanks 

    And your take on D murray ,would be appreciated  if you get a chance 

    View Comment
  65. Homunculus

    Homunculus


    Billydug
    June 13, 2018 at 16:49

    HOMUNCULUSJUNE 13, 2018 at 16:19

    Maybe not recent times but within most of our lifetimes I would reckon a fair percentage of powerful positions in Scotland would have them.

    ======================================

    I totally agree.

    View Comment
  66. Helpumoot


    Homunculus
    I guess James Traynor has made a huge mistake giving his company the name he gave it. Who would that attract? No one, I guess. And Surrender-No was talking to no one when he littered an article with Masonic phrases.
    I never said “all” as you claim (except with regard to the Sevco Board.) If you wish to have a look at Larkin’s ‘Anyone but Celtic..’ he lists 26 referees and names each one of them.
    And if it is not such a problem these days, why has disclosure become such an issue in Parliament?
    L.N.S.

    View Comment
  67. Homunculus

    Homunculus


    No you didn’t say all, you are absolutely correct, this is what you said.

    “Nearly all the main protagonists who stand accused share this in common. The banks. The judiciary, (LNS and the FTTT decision.) The top positions in Scottish football governance over the years have been overwhelmingly filled by masons. Rangers board members – 100% masonic. The refereeing fraternity. Editors in the Press. PR men.”

    I possibly mis read it because of the singular way in which you laid it out.

    I still disagree, but I have explained the reasons why already so won’t go into it again. I have also agreed with Billydug’s last comment, which I think to be much more accurate.  

    This is just a personal thing, and you possibly have evidence to support it but I would be uncomfortable saying Rangers board members – 100% masonic. I don’t even know where I would get evidence for such a claim from.

    View Comment
  68. Homunculus

    Homunculus


    TheLawMan2
    June 13, 2018 at 17:19
    ==================================

    Can I just say, the amount of tosh you are passing off as comment here is increasing exponentially.

    The last 24 hours or so have really destroyed any credibility you may have thought you had.

    That’s only my opinion of course, it certainly isn’t an exclusive.

    View Comment
  69. bfbpuzzled


    The Lawman
    You have an unfortunate tendency to call things utter nonsense. In the instance I cite I was relying on what a man told me regarding one particular parish church in the bowels of Lanarkshire. 
    Claims if being better than others are generally thoroughly disreputable and I was merely following your argument to a conclusion using an example to demonstrate that.
    Higgy’s Shoes
    I believe your theory to be wrong regarding compatibility of any Christian denomination (sects are a different thing) with membership of Masonic lodges, some allow it others do not for good ecclesiological and theological reasons. Hindus can be regarded as monotheists underneath all the surface details.
    This is not the place to go into all of that and I shall resist that temptation, I am possibly one of the few Latin Rite Catholics also to be theologically qualified to minister in the Reformed Church of Switzerland, which came as I surprise to me I can tell you. The previous sentence is not nonsense utter or otherwise.

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  70. Billydug

    Billydug


    THELAWMAN2JUNE 13, 2018 at 18:31Has Paul said   he personally knows 26 refs?.
    For a guy that’s meant to be away on business for 2 weeks you sure are posting quite a bit on various forums.

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  71. JustTheFacts


    THELAWMAN2JUNE 13, 2018 at 16:58
    JUSTTHEFACTSJUNE 13, 2018 at 11:58Well said and thanks JTF.  Did you get my message ?

    Yes seen and responded 👍🏼

    View Comment
  72. JustTheFacts


    TD’s for responding to a PM.
    I’m a broken man so a um aye 😢
    If I take it upon myself to discuss “Circular debates that go nowhere” then that’s my prerogative.
    Lawman has agreed to discuss the Govt Documentation I put up off the site in private so as not to go round in circles.
    This is how 2 adults behave.
    He knows my standpoint and I his.
    No harm done.
    Now crack on and TD away boys 👎🏼
    For two fuqs I will not give.

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  73. Billydug

    Billydug


    THELAWMAN2JUNE 13, 2018 at 19:55
    It’s hard to miss you you’re everywhere.
    Now could you answer. Did Paul say he knew 26 refs personally?

    View Comment
  74. Homunculus

    Homunculus


    THELAWMAN2
    JUNE 13, 2018 at 20:04

    The masons are a secret society. Family members don’t often know if they are members.
    =======================================================

    You really do talk some amount of garbage.

    Dad goes out every second Tuesday of the month wearing his suit and carrying a wee suitcase. No-one knows where he is going, it’s a total mystery. His grandfather was a mason, his dad was a mason and he … well we don’t know where he goes every second Tuesday wearing his suit and carrying his wee case.

    For the vast bulk of people the masons are a wee boys club who get together and do silly wee things because it makes them feel special and part of something. They favour other masons in giving out jobs and contracts. They talk about it and let everyone know they are masons. They give a “secret handshake” to everyone they meet, they wear square and compass ffs.

    Secret society, aye right. 

    I know people who are of the more secret type of masons, and they are by far the minority.

    View Comment

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