The Dismal Art of Whataboutery

by Stuart Cosgrove for the Scottish Football Monitor

In the early years of the new millennium, ‘The Battle of the Saints’ was a First Division encounter. Both St Mirren and St Johnstone had been relegated and were among the favourites to return to the spiritually suffocating SPL. Winning the First Division title was a mixed blessing. It provided a football moment that old firm fans could only dream of – an open-top bus round. But victory meant you were back in the SPL, a league that had been shaped for the benefit of the two big clubs.

Television revenues were skewed, there were no play-offs, only one team could be relegated and the voting structures would bring shame to a tin-pot dictatorship. It was a league you could never realistically win and so never fully enjoy. I remember being in the ‘Wee Barrel’ a traditional football boozer near St Mirren’s old Love Street stadium. It was soon after the St Johnstone drug scandal.   On 5th January 2001, George O’Boyle and his teammate Kevin Thomas had been sacked following allegations that they had used illegal recreational drugs. They had allegedly been caught taking an “unidentified white powder” at the club’s injured players Christmas Party at That Bar in Perth. The drugs scandal undermined St Johnstone’s much peddled identity as a local family club. A bitter industrial dispute unfolded and widespread dressing-room unrest. The team’s form catastrophically dipped. Inevitably, St Mirren fans were delighted to play host to such a “scandalised” and “drug-addled” club. Football fans relish the misfortune of others with almost satanic glee. So the Buddies cheered sarcastically when any Perth fans went into the Wee Barrel’s less than salubrious pub toilet. They made pantomime sniffing noises interjected with animal impersonations and at times it sounded like a famer’s convention had turned into a massive cocaine bender. I vividly remember that one St Johnstone fan became so enraged that he blurted out the unforgettable phrase ‘Aye but what about Barry Lavety?’ Further back in 1995 the St Mirren striker Lavety had been arrested for using the then ‘designer drug’ ecstasy making him the first footballer of the acid-house generation. In this short, pithy response outside a toilet door in the Wee Barrel, all the gut instincts of football spectatorship came to the surface and all the components of what was later to become known as ‘whataboutery’ were laid bare.

Whataboutery pre-dates the internet but it has been kindled by it. The web has transformed the way we talk and think about football. Suddenly and profoundly new forums for discussing the game quickly followed. Facebook was launched two years later in 2004, Twitter joined the social media firmament in 2006 and by 2012 and Scottish football’s summer of discontent the micro-blogging platform had 500 million active users. The rise of social media invoked an ‘epistemological break’ with previous eras of spectatorship and with other forms of media and communication. For the first time ever, fans had a way of instantly communicating, of answering back and disagreeing with each other in real-time. Whataboutery is a dismal art that can be defined by three often sub-conscious characteristics – a refusal to engage with the question at hand; an attempt to deflect the discussion on to others and a failure to engage with the morality of the subject.

Go on any web forum today and you will find many debates are pock-marked with whataboutery. The financial meltdown of Rangers is the most recent and most virulent example. What about Hearts they owe the taxman? What about Dundee they’ve gone bust twice? What about Leeds, Middlesbrough and Portsmouth? Sadly, the misdemeanours of others is an unstable platform on which to mount a moral defence and celebrating victory in a tax tribunal about complex offshore loan-trusts does not magically airbrush away tax-debt involving VAT and PAYE. Nor does whatboutery explain why already rich footballers should enjoy the moral right to hide behind complex off shore tax schemes, irrespective of their legality.   Every football fan at some time in their life has felt a deep primal urge to defend their club. We are emotionally instinctive creatures and quick to play the martyr. But however passionate you are about football – and I would count myself as ‘combustible’ – being loyal to your club does not permit disloyalty or contempt for the institutions of a fair society.

Not surprisingly, the origins of the term whatboutery can be traced back to the sectarian divisions in Northern Ireland. Last year I met the journalist and blogger, Mick Fealty who is one of the driving forces behind the blog forum Slugger O’Toole, a site that has bravely tried to provide a platform for localism and for non-sectarian political discourse in Northern Ireland. It is often cited as the place where the term whataboutery was invented. Taking its lead from Slugger, the online dictionary wikitionary defines whataboutery as “responding to criticism by accusing one’s opponent of similar or worse faults.” Recently, at the height of rioting in Belfast in the aftermath of Belfast city council’s policy shift on flying the union flag, a major local newspaper the Belfast Telegraph said in a trenchant editorial – “For everyone who cares about democracy; who wants an end to sectarian posing and mind games; an end to mindless thuggery; an end to immature reactions to complicated issues; an end to whataboutery ….” An end to sectarian posing and mind games – how refreshing would that be? The recent case of Anthony Stokes is a case in point. Most fans would concede that Stokes is a fool to have associated himself with the Real IRA and criminal elements within the Dublin republican scene. But some fans – believing they were supporting their club and its Irish origins – are hard-wired to romanticism and a re-hashed history. Nothing that Stokes has done is either romantic or historic – it is grubby and pathetic. Nor is deflection acceptable either. Yes of course Andy Goram has associated with some fairly disagreeable characters but that does not absolve Stokes of responsibility. Celtic manager Neil Lennon has been unambiguous about that. Stokes is on a final warning and rightly so. Whataboutery is the glue of entrenched opinion. It cultivates extremes rather than subtleties, and favours glib comment over deeper dialogue.  That is why TSFM should always be vigilant about the forum slipping into whatabouterty.

It seems almost banal to say it, but you can be a supporter without being a supplicant.   You can be Rangers daft without endorsing morally bereft tax loopholes, you can want Neil Lennon to enjoy a life free from intimidation without defending complicated film investment schemes; you can relish a goal by Garry O’ Connor without admiring his self-defeating lifestyle,  you can be a big Jambo but still expect staff to be paid on time, you can be a Red Ultra without having to urinate on videos of Gazza and  you can soak up the atmosphere in the Dundee Derry, without cushioning its sectarian associations. And, yes I do know that there was once a dairy behind the goal at the Derry End – but when fights erupted in the 1970s, it wasn’t lactic pasteurisation they were fighting about.

Football fans can be emotionally passionate yet hold on to moral values.  We can be vocal without being vacuous. We can be diehard fans without being robotic ideologues for our club.  Many of us have found ourselves tied in knots trying to defend our clubs and in some cases defend the indefensible. The roll-call of whatboutery in Scottish football would shame a mature society. There’s defective flat-screen televisions in Manchester; hearses at Celtic Park; programme notes at Montrose; unidentified white powder; porn peddlers in the 1980s, Joanna Lumley’s love-life, urinal-videos in Aberdeen; Leigh Griffith’s unique contribution to fatherhood; Hugh Dallas’s emails; Maurice Edu’s car and Lee Wallace’s air-rifle. They are surreal and seemingly endless.

As new technologies surround us daily, whataboutery has gone digital and online disputes are now frequently backed up by a stream of phone-footage, rogue tweets, photo-shopped imagery  and spectacularly desperate analogies.  We live in the white-heat of social media where whataboutery goes on ad nauseum and in perpetuity. It is the dismal art of the web and a habit we have to overcome if Scottish football is ever to find a settled democracy. The financial collapse of Rangers has brought us to a cross roads. Unless there is some kind of rapprochement and an ‘appliance of compliance’, then whataboutery will last for many more decades to come.  Whataboutery is a defence mechanism which allows fans and the clubs they support to avoid moral responsibility. But it need not be like that. In February 2007, Scottish football was given a simple lesson in how the game could be run if we could look forward. It was a cold and wet night at Fir Park during a midweek Scottish cup tie. St Johnstone’s Jason Scotland was unexpectedly targeted by a small band of racist Motherwell fans. By most reasonable accounts of the events, a gang of right-wing casuals taunted the player with monkey chants. Season tickets were not valid and many fans were not in their regular seats. But within a few minutes, groups of decent Motherwell fans turned on the racists, shouted them down and alerted the police.

Online there was a brief and half-hearted flurry of whataboutery. Some denied it had happened, others said that Jason Scotland was “playing the race card” and a small vocal minority argued it was Airdrie fans. This is an unfamiliar twist on an age old deflection. Blaming phantom support from elsewhere is quite common in Scottish football, although it is usually the demonology of Chelsea, Millwall or England fans that are cast as the mysterious villains.

Whatever the motives of those that posted their defence of Motherwell, the whataboutery was short-lived and brought to a shuddering halt by a simple, prompt and unambiguous apology. In an official club statement, Chairman John Boyle said: “These people should never show their faces at Fir Park again and they have no place in football,” adding “We are utterly appalled by this behaviour by a small group of people who have tarnished the name of our club. We are writing to Jason Scotland and St Johnstone today to apologise for this disgusting behaviour which is totally alien to all of us.”

Motherwell had scripted a blue-print for change. Rather than deflect attention elsewhere or dispute the minutiae of events, clubs, fans and officials have to become “better at being wrong.”  When there is a clear injustice, evidence of wrong-doing or powerful proof that mistakes have been made, then it is no longer acceptable to hide from the moral consequences. Apologise and pay the price. That applies equally to all of us and there is no hierarchy of importance. No special cases. The SPL may have a history of gifting privileges but common decency does not.

Stuart Cosgrove

Stuart Cosgrove is a St Johnstone fan. He was previously Media Editor of the NME and is now Director of Creative Diversity at Channel 4, where he recently managed coverage of the Paralympics, London 2012. At the weekend he presents the BBC Scotland football show ‘Off the Ball’ with Tam Cowan. This is the second of a trilogy of blogs he has agreed to write for TSFM. The first was about the era of Armageddon. He writes here in a personal capacity.

Trisidium

Trisidium

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

796 Comments
  1. whullie


    Thank you for that TSFM.

    Above is the response, in it’s entirety, to my letter to The ADC of Maj. Gen. Nick. H. Eeles, General Officer Commanding Scotland wrt to the Remembrance Day events at Ibrox. It is,I believe, exactly the same as the ones recieved and commented on by John Clarke, Tommy, Paulsatim, Angus1983, Danish Pastry, wjohnston1 and others.

    View Comment
  2. TSFM


    The new club – old club thing is getting a bit circular in terms of argument. I doubt very much that anyone is going to bring anything new to the table save for yet another “if ma granny died and ma granda re-married is she ma granny?” routine.

    It is an utterly pointless exercise in anything other than venting frustration which by definition is not the type of discussion we want on here. Given the fact that by and large the consensus on here is that they are a new club, and the stark situation that no Rangers fan will be convinced anyway, what is the point of constantly regurgitating it again and again?

    If we just agree to disagree then people can call them whatever they want without making it the topic of the blog. For the record, Rangers as they exist in the 3rd division are indisputably a new club, but apparently Rangers fans don’t agree, and it doesn’t point to any character defects if they take that stance.

    Nobody wins here. Rangers fans will be stuck with the new Club jibe forever, and those who want something officially endorsing that view posted on the town hall wall will be waiting forever. Get over it please.

    The name thing is inconsequential compared to what went on in the summer, and doesn’t amount to a hill of beans compared to the mountain of corruption that rose out of the sea of debt when Rangers went on the skids.

    We have had an award winning journalist and broadcaster spend a lot of time trying to drive the debate forward here, and by and large his posts – and those of others – are ignored by many who don’t know, or are not sufficiently interested in finding out which battles can be won and those which cannot.

    Can we please cut out the hot air and get back to real discussion?

    Apologies for the rant, but sometimes going through these posts I feel like I’m trudging through a river of molasses.

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  3. whullie


    exiledcelt says:
    Sunday, December 23, 2012 at 00:28

    CG doing his UN best to defuse the situation – says non TRFC fans will cause trouble and blame the new club, then says he will take all the tickets and sell out – then states he wont talk to SPL clubes………..where to start…………

    It worse than having an attention seeking idiot inthe family……oh hold on!

    http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/4711260/I-predict-a-riot.html

    CHARLES GREEN has warned Dundee United they are risking a RIOT by selling tickets direct to Rangers fans.
    ——————-

    Hi EC. WRT this above article.

    It is my view that CG is trying to do one of two things here.

    1. IF TRFC fans go to that game and there is any trouble, he has is his excuse in early.

    2. Alternatively. It could be construed as a snide effort by him to ensure that DUFC think twice about any effort to recoup some losses incurred by CG’s blatant gamesmanship, by offering tickets to ANY fans. Thus ensuring the away end is empty.
    Does CG want 40% of the gate? A gate wholly funded by fans of DUFC only?

    And The SFA do………..well, S.F.A.

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  4. john clarke


    whullie says:
    Sunday, December 23, 2012 at 01:43
    ‘It is,I believe, exactly the same as the ones recieved and commented on by John Clarke, Tommy, Paulsatim, Angus1983, Danish Pastry, wjohnston1 and others.’

    Yes, it is, indeed.

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  5. john clarke


    TSFM says:
    Sunday, December 23, 2012 at 01:52
    ‘…We have had an award winning journalist and broadcaster spend a lot of time trying to drive the debate forward here, ..’
    ———–
    Yes, indeed.

    The same man was absolutely brilliant on last evening’s ‘Sportsound Extra’.

    (On which, I may say, Tom English proved himself to be, essentially and basically, a ‘Terry Wogan’ who allowed an absolutely unconnected-to-football matter to be raised and was stupid enough, like some gombeenman , to respond to it ,instead of batting it and the perfidious BBC’s Kenny McIntyre into touch.

    But that takes us down another, well-trodden road entirely, as far as the objectivity of BBC Radio Scotland is concerned.

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  6. TSFM


    TSFM says:

    Sunday, December 23, 2012 at 01:52(Edit)

    The name thing is inconsequential compared to what went on in the summer, and doesn’t amount to a hill of beans compared to the mountain of corruption that rose out of the sea of debt when Rangers went on the skids.
    ___________________________________________________________________________

    It’s very very late and I am very very tired. But I claim mixed metaphor of the year award for this 🙂

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  7. ExiledCelt


    TSFM – sorry to say but you are wrong

    If we say its ok to be the same club then TRFC should still be in SPL, not play in SLC or SC until 3rd round and have been in CL. In other words they were punished.

    If we agree its a different club, what transpired was the consequences of being a new club and not punishment

    The arguement is essentially the cause of the chasm in Scottish football created by people who were meant to look after Scottish football.

    They did it to enable a Spiv to make a lot of money in order to ensure “the fabric of society” were given a club to follow and maintain 140 years of dignified history.

    I agree we don’t need any more Granny stories. However you either believe TRFC were punished (same club) or have sufferred the consequences of being a new club.

    There is no gray area. Nor is there any doubt. However SFA, SFL and SPL have allowed CG t muddy the waters when it suits him.

    That is to their eternal shame

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  8. selfassessor


    http://m.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/charles-green-warns-of-crowd-trouble-as-dundee-united-sell-to-rangers-fans-1-2704949

    Whataboutery this for a laugh? Charlie Endell is now saying the board are saying Rangers fans aren’t going to the Dundee United game for safety reasons! Did I miss something when he spewed his original spin when the fixture was announced.

    You can’t make this shit up but it certainly stinks of it.

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  9. jockybhoy


    Green has given the light blues fans a carte blanche to succumb to red mist at the tangerines ground. It’ll be a black day and the boys in blue might end up purple.

    Colour me worried.

    What are the SFA/SPL/Tayside police going to say about what seems to me to be an attempt to pre-absolve the “ibrox club” from any blame whilst fanning the flames by mentioning “bad blood”?

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  10. doontheslope


    TSFM

    It was the award winning journalist himself who was ripping the p@sh out of all things Sevco on his programme yesterday regarding their claim to be ‘old co.’

    This has got little or nothing to do with ‘banter’ or bragging rights. Its to do with whether a club can screw the tax payer and creditors for millions and waltz straight back in debt free as if nothing had happened.

    And just when sections of the MSM are beginning to speak out and pressure is being put on the SFA to declare them a new club, we are being asked to take our feet off the gas?

    I say pay their debts. Then they can call themselves Real Madrid or whoever if they wish. At that point, who cares?

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  11. Tartawulver

    Tartawulver


    I think Dundee United should have given the tickets for the away end to local schools for free – pack out that end of the ground, good PR, maybe encourage some new fans, and show up Charles Green’s posturing for the pot-stirring nonsense it is

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  12. campsiejoe


    Charlie obviously believes, perhaps with some degree of confidence, that he is totally immune to any form of sanction from the so called footballing authorities
    There is not another director, manager or club official who spout this level of nonsense, without being called to the viper’s nest to explain himself

    The longer this is allowed to continue, then the perception that the SFA/SPL/SFL are complicit in maintaining the status of Sevco, and ensuring that no harm will come to it, will continue to grow
    That is a very dangerous situation for those running the game to find themselves in

    All of the other clubs, should take a long hard look at themselves also, as they will in time face the same accusations as those who slither around Hampden
    They have the power to enforce change, but sadly seem to lack the testicular fortitude to do it

    When the infamous 5 way agreement is revealed, and one day it will be in all its corrupt detail. then the SFA/SPL/SFL will be forced to explain why they let the rest of the game down, and the festering boil can then be lanced
    Then and only then will we all be able to move on

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  13. angus1983


    I wasn’t aware of any great bad feeling between RFC and Dundee Utd (aside from the usual antagonism caused by RFC fans wherever they go) until Mr Green started stirring this particular pot.

    I’m not sure what Mr Green’s plan is now – he doesn’t need to keep the siege mentality quite so ramped up now the cash is in. Why is he preserving the “them and us” attitude, and why is he seeking new targets for it, or at least magnifying existing targets?

    Although his slippery statements are carefully worded to avoid official repercussion, there can be little doubt that they incite TRFC supporters to act in their own inimitable way.

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  14. neepheid


    campsiejoe says:
    Sunday, December 23, 2012 at 08:49
    2 0 Rate This
    Charlie obviously believes, perhaps with some degree of confidence, that he is totally immune to any form of sanction from the so called footballing authorities
    ==========
    Charles Green knows, with absolute certainty, that he is immune to any sanction, because Charles Green has a copy of the 5 way agreement in his jacket pocket, and if he chooses to release it, then it’s goodbye to the “leadership” of the SFA, SPL and SFL. Because all 3 bodies are complicit in the most corrupt stitch-up in the history of Scottish football. Why did they put themselves in that position? That’s the real question.

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  15. Lord Wobbly


    selfassessor says:
    Sunday, December 23, 2012 at 06:50
    9 2 Rate This

    http://m.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/charles-green-warns-of-crowd-trouble-as-dundee-united-sell-to-rangers-
    fans-1-2704949

    Whataboutery this for a laugh? Charlie Endell is now saying the
    board are saying Rangers fans aren’t going to the Dundee United game for safety reasons!
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    The Ibrox asbestos problem must have been resolved tout de suite then…

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  16. Bill1903

    Bill1903


    angus1983 says:
    Sunday, December 23, 2012 at 09:05
    0 0 Rate This
    I wasn’t aware of any great bad feeling between RFC and Dundee Utd (aside from the usual antagonism caused by RFC fans wherever they go) until Mr Green started stirring this particular pot.
    ———————————————————————————————————————————

    Indeed Angus I was also unaware of any bad feeling.

    Can you imagine the hype if the new club were coming to Pittodrie !

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  17. Lord Wobbly


    angus1983 says:
    Sunday, December 23, 2012 at 09:05
    1 1 Rate This
    I wasn’t aware of any great bad feeling between RFC and Dundee Utd (aside from the usual antagonism caused by RFC fans wherever they go) until Mr Green started stirring this particular pot.
    I’m not sure what Mr Green’s plan is now – he doesn’t need to
    keep the siege mentality quite so ramped up now the cash is in.
    Why is he preserving the “them and us” attitude, and why is he
    seeking new targets for it, or at least magnifying existing targets?
    Although his slippery statements are carefully worded to avoid
    official repercussion, there can be little doubt that they incite TRFC supporters to act in their own inimitable way.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    If Rangers International fans (stifles laugh) have their sights trained on other clubs, His Excellency President for Life, Field Marshal Charles Green, UEFA CWC, Scottish League Champion 54, Scottish Cup winner 33, League Cup winner 27 etc etc can continue to manipulate his own domain with impunity.

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  18. iceman63


    The only hope rests with the club and for reasons of practicality, fear and self interest,that is a very slim hope indeed. The authorities are hopelessly compromised, and are in reality parties to corruption and cheating. The clubs need to take action to save the game; the fear obviously ids that such action itself may well trigger a further crisis which further damages the game.

    The clubs should call an egm of the SFA and demand to see the five way agreement and have lawyers check its validity and legitimacy. If, as i think it is, it is a completely ultra vires document where the rules have been breached to allow SEVCO to enter and rename themselves Rangers despite the rule not allowing a share transfer to another legal entity and the second rule demanding three years of new accounts for new entrants not being met, and the failure to allow a proper entry procedure as per the rules for a new club to enter not being met, then all involved should be fired – and sued for damages personally by the clubs for their reckless and incompetent actions.

    At that point a decision would then have to be made about accepting the fait accompli re the Rangers given that it is tied up to the structural integrity of both the league and the TV deal- or rejecting the agreement and re-imposing the rules and asking the new club to stop playing as they are there illegally . One could, of course, expect huge damages claims if that comes to pass from CG and his cohorts – but also huge consequences if they are allowed to stay in breach of the rules. The game will either be forever illegitimate by accepting this agreement or bankrupted by the legal actions which both SKY and the Rangers will take against them should they annul it.

    It’s a total mess.

    It may well be that the fear of opening this particular can of worms is what keeps them all in place. Some of the clubs may well want to gain justice – but may know that the process of getting there will leave the game bankrupted finacially by the officials who signed this deal; they are of course already bankrupted morally by the very agreement which is in place at present.

    The game’s very existence is now incredibly fragile. It is built solely upon a conspiracy to keep the five way agreement document hidden and away from any scrutiny by lawyers or others well versed in the articles of association.

    Turnbull Hutton called them “corrrupt” and has never been brought to task for it. They are all truly, deeply and irrevocably corrupt, and are manifestly unfit to hold office in any organisation which requires any standards of probity.

    Their actions have destroyed the game totally as a sport. They may or may not be criminal – though I think they ought to be – but they are unquestionably reckless , and almost certainly against the rules of the game of which they are the guardians.

    Contempt for all involved should be total and endless. None of those involved in signing that agreement are human beings of any honesty or integrity or courage: all are pathetic, disgusting, revolting individuals without a shred of human decency.

    We know that – and they know that!

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  19. campsiejoe


    Within the not too distant future, the true status of Sevco will be laid bare, with no wriggle room left for Charlie and his MSM puppets
    Logic and facts say beyond all reasonable doubt, that it is a new company and a new club, and eventually via the courts or some quasi judicial procedure, this will be proved (TUPE case for example)
    The focus now has to shift to the nest of vipers, and all our efforts should be directed towards exposing them
    The only way we can realistically do this is via the clubs we support, and that is where we need to start
    There are people out there who are on our side, and what we need to find is a way to encourage them to stand up and be counted
    If they could find the courage, they would also find that the vast majority of fans would stand right there with them

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  20. campsiejoe


    And another thought
    We should be demanding answers fro BDO, HMRC and others, as to why they appear to be taking no action against one of the most blatant examples of a Phoenix Company possibly ever seen, coupled with possible gratuitous alienation
    All of this needs to be kept in the spotlight too

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  21. borussiabeefburg


    Regarding Charles Green’s latest contradictory statement, where he counters the assertion that certain spl clubs will be starved of Ibrox cash by gallantly suggesting DU “give us all the tickets”, he may be shifting ground towards accepting an official allocation, now that the share sale show-boating season is ended.

    As for iceman63’s suggestion that clubs call an emergency general meeting, which I TU’d, in my opinion too many clubs/club officials have a vested interest in a resurgence of a Govan side that they are prepared to take a risk on Green’s strategy…..which may also spell disaster for the newest side in the league. But, and this is why there is no official outcry, many smaller teams presently are making, for them, small fortunes, while others hope for a favourable cup draw.

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  22. auchinstarry


    I have a comment stuck in moderation since last Thu/Fri. Assume it is for misuse of the Abjab word.
    My point was the continuation of the MSM under Jack/Traynors guidance to supply the necessary propaganda for Sir Charles and Sevco to continue on their merry (irony) way.
    Under the pen name Gary Ralston, Jack/ Mr Traynor had four full pages of gratuitous guff published in Thursdays DR. Total and utter garbage, aimed at Sevco supporters, informing them (once again) of just how magnificent Lord Charles is. I realise the only real way to confront this issue is to cease buying this rag.
    I well remember the caller to Real Radio about 18 months ago who stated on air “We run Scottish football”…….Guess who he supported.
    Finally a Well done to Dundee Utd, for their dignified handling of the Scottish cup ticket boycott by Sevco.

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  23. jimlarkin


    http://www.dothebouncy.com/home/content.php?290

    http://www.dothebouncy.com/home/content.php?289

    . . . Irony

    in these articles –

    the sevconians REFUSE to use the SEVCO name

    is it a case of

    THE TRUTH HURTS ?

    it is a new club owned and operated by 2 newco’s
    RIFC and TRFC

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  24. yakutsuki

    yakutsuki


    RE green’s latest outburst. Is this just a case of CG ‘retaliating first?’

    He seems to have brewed the perfect riot and is finger pointing before it even starts!

    Who will it be this time? Chelsea fans again??

    He says he’s worried that some folk may dress in red, white and blue and pretend to be
    Rangers fans! My first reaction was disbelief that anyone in their right mind would act that way, then I realised that tens of thousands are doing just that every other week. They’re going to Ibrox dressed in red, white and blue pretending to be Rangers fans!!!

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  25. jimlarkin


    auchinstarry says:

    Sunday, December 23, 2012 at 10:50

    I have a comment stuck in moderation since last Thu/Fri. Assume it is for misuse of the Abjab word.
    My point was the continuation of the MSM under Jack/Traynors guidance to supply the necessary propaganda for Sir Charles and Sevco to continue on their merry (irony) way.
    Under the pen name Gary Ralston, Jack/ Mr Traynor had four full pages of gratuitous guff published in Thursdays DR. Total and utter garbage, aimed at Sevco supporters, informing them (once again) of just how magnificent Lord Charles is. I realise the only real way to confront this issue is to cease buying this rag.
    I well remember the caller to Real Radio about 18 months ago who stated on air “We run Scottish football”…….Guess who he supported.
    Finally a Well done to Dundee Utd, for their dignified handling of the Scottish cup ticket boycott by Sevco

    ————————————————————————————————–

    good post.

    someone posted earlier that he thought it would have been a good idea for dundee utd to give away the tickets to schoolkids to fill the ground.

    i think that is a good way to tackle “the problem”.
    that way, sevco are not getting a cut as the tickets would be free and maybe the kids would have a pie and a drink whilst at the game?

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  26. valentinesclown

    valentinesclown


    riddrie says:
    Sunday, December 23, 2012 at 00:01
    8 3 Rate This
    jean7brodie says:
    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 21:12

    Anybody have a link to Your Call tonight?
    ==================================

    Here you go Jean…

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/scotfoot#playepiso

    ____________________________________________________________________________

    I still cannot get access to Stuart Cosgrove and your call on 22 Dec from this link. Any help would be appreciated.

    View Comment
  27. pau1mart1n


    if that statement doesnt bring a disrepute charge on monday, then we’ll know campbell’s in hampden at his desk administrating away, even on xmas eve.
    bet he stays late too.

    View Comment
  28. bad capt madman


    Sorry to ask, but have TRFC paid their debt to DUFC yet?

    View Comment
  29. pau1mart1n


    i would guess that chuck expects it to be deducted from the gate money, hence he can say what he wants and its a freebie.

    View Comment
  30. yakutsuki

    yakutsuki


    This latest nonsense from Green would be absolute comedy gold if it weren’t so dangerous.

    It’s alright for you Chic, you’re not going to be anywhere near any violence.

    It’s surely time for the boys in charge to come down hard on this irresponsible buffoon.

    If he gets any worse, the cops may have to step in first.

    Green can plead innocence, but there’s definitely a sinister element to all his manipulation of the fan’s mood.

    Green… Shut the feck up!

    View Comment
  31. rab


    Why would any other fan dress up as a Trfc supporter to attend a game at tannadice and fight with D Utd fans. We all have our rivalries but im not aware of any instances of real crowd trouble at Scottish grounds, maybe an odd missile thrower or a street battle between a few drunken bams, but not the kind of grievance that would encourage fans to team together, attend tannadice, dressed in blue and ransack Dundee or fight with any Trfc fans loitering nearby. I don’t know about anyone else, but i would never wear any Trfc colours. Ever.

    View Comment
  32. bailemeanach


    Did anyone else miss that watershed moment for Scottish football back in 2009? Clearly we failed to deal with an incident which has been festering away for 3 years and has now come to an ugly head.

    Never mind the lengthy queue of unpaid creditors, including the public purse. It seems that some half price entry tariff for fans of a club that is now awaiting termination, some 3 years ago, is the only show in town

    View Comment
  33. Senior


    ‘The game’s very existence is now incredibly fragile’

    My very point ICEMAN, but the whistling pass the graveyard continues. My biggest fear is, when we wake up to the fact that the good-ship Scottish Football is sinking it will be to late.

    Another point. This scenario with Dundee Utd V Sevco is playing out a certain way. I can see the game being postponed due to the unpredictability of the situation. The police will have no option.
    What a pretty pass this has come to and Rome/SFA fiddles (pun intended) while the game goes down the sink. The forty two clubs in the SFA have a lot to answer for.

    View Comment
  34. bad capt madman


    …and have any of the MSM asked if TRFC have paid DUFC yet?

    View Comment
  35. jimlarkin


    ohhappydayz

    heres the link to stuart cosgrove (and tom “sit on the fence” english)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01px4f0

    View Comment
  36. timtim


    I’m sure we are all aquainted with the 3 wise men from the East, Gaspar Melchior and
    Balthasar bearing gifts of gold frankincense and myrrh for the new born saviour in a stable on the outskirts of Bethlehem
    In Scotland however we have our own version of history ,rewritten for modern times.
    3 clowns from the west Grasper Murkier and Bashier bringing goals frankenstein and myrth
    to the un-stable near Bedlam. No need to follow a star to get them there, they just follow followed the Scottish Sun . The saviour wasnt born here of course , he was born 140 years earlier ,no Lazarus nonsense either just a simple birthday celebration for the old born king.
    This isnt the Magi from the East this is the Magic of the West
    The old story is accompanied with peace and goodwill and it was free
    In the new story the goodwill cost £1, and the peace ,well thats gone missing
    Merry Christmas

    View Comment
  37. rab


    As you are sorting out your christmas tips for the paperboy, milkman or local companionship provider 😉 don’t forget your friendly blog moderators who work by candlelight, in freezing conditions with only stale bread and puddle water for sustenance to bring to you in your centrally heated homes and overstocked larders, a refreshing alternative to the succulent lamb fed ramblings of jacks minions.

    In the spirit of the season should ole scrooge green change the sevco mantra to rangers past, rangers present, rangers future like the other ghosts.

    Merry Christmas everyone.

    View Comment
  38. ClashCityRockers


    This is where the MSM and the SFA have let themselves down. The MSM are very happy to provide the platform for the likes of Charles Green to be divisive and antagonistic with out questioning him or his motives, in any depth. They then deliberately create sensationalist headlines in order to reach their sales targets. We all know that the MSM will be flocking up to Tannadice, as I type this, in an attempt to create even more tension by asking DUFC every leading question they can. Yet again giving them the opportunity for more sensational headlines. But, if this fixture in Dundee does turn violent, the MSM will point blank refuse to take any blame or responsibility for their misjudged and irresponsible reporting. The MSM should be trying to alleviate the tensions that are building up here. The MSM should be reminding their readers and listeners that this all started with elements of the Ibrox support calling for a boycott very shortly after the fixture was announced, then Charles Green jumping on the bandwagon and cranking up the tension. The SFA have proved to be spineless when DUFC asked for advice. The obsequiousness shown by the SFA towards Ibrox is now fully exposed. The SFA should be in control in trying to calm the situation down. The top level of management at the SFA have failed to protect Scottish Football. If things do turn nasty in and around Tannadice I know who I am going to blame.

    Think I will chill out and listen to The Stranglers track “Something Better Change” extremely loudly.

    View Comment
  39. campsiejoe


    New post up by Auldheid

    View Comment
  40. thornlyboy


    The blog seems to be building up a head of steam again. But, focus, focus. CG and the Green Rainjurs attitude to DUFC is deplorable, but there will be no sanction. (Rely on it.) The SFA’s compliance officer for Neil lennon and Kenny Shiels (Mr VL – a spineless creature) will not act.

    On the wider front, forget boycotts, but remember why TRFC were dumped from the SPL and Div 1. If there is any hint of a fourth-tier club being ‘promoted’ above its station, get the fans’ groups on board, threaten not to renew STs and embarrass chairpeople into shunning them. CG and the Gang of 3(4?) can only fume at the sidelines and it might just precipitate the removal of said gang. But all that’s for later in the year.

    In the meantime, keep your eye on the money and worry away at that. Merry Christmas!

    View Comment
  41. whullie


    iceman63 says:
    Sunday, December 23, 2012 at 10:07

    Reading this inspired a mad thought. So mad that I am almost embarrassed to submit it. I am laughing to myself as I type. It IS another possible explanation for the behavior of the ‘high heid yins’ at Hampden but is extremely left-field. I only comment on it really,to have it had it aired, read, laughed at, TD’d and dismissed from the investigation.

    Most of us are so aghast at the level of “nothing to see here” emanating from Hampden. It has truly reached epidemic proportions.

    Could the SFA/Vincent Lunny be compiling evidence against CG and others involved at TRFC? Are they giving them the rope to hang themselves? To us the case against is overwhelming but no charges. as yet, are brought to bear(pun intended).

    IF TRFC were to be dealt with properly and purged from football at this juncture, it would wreck the league. Maybe they are waiting until the logical time to expunge them which is the end of the season. They are compiling a list of wrong-doings and Charles is walking into their cunningly laid trap.

    They wouldn’t.

    Would they?

    Naw!

    But……….

    Stop it Whullie and just hit the send button.

    There! I’ve done it!

    Maybe I should go and have a wee lie doon. 😀

    TD’s and laughing expected. Replies welcomed.

    NOTE; No cooking sherry was consumed prior to the thought processes involved in the writing and submission of this comment.

    View Comment
  42. Bill1903

    Bill1903


    A critical article on Charlie by super slurper Hugh Keevins in the Sunday Mail today

    Nearly choked on my toast

    View Comment
  43. Banners to the Breeze


    At this time of the year in Scotland, there are traditionally only two roads that can be taken to reach your destination … reading today’s thoughts from Chairman Green, he has once again chosen to keep his feet firmly marching along the ‘low road’ to ambitions end.
    His goodwill message at Christmas – is the possibility of rioting at Tannadice, in the event that Scottish Cup tickets are sold directly to the Bears.
    This is a self-harming belligerence, that even the most obtuse of TRFC fans must now realise will cause even more damage to the club’s already declining reputational assets. For as sure as follow, follows follow in the Gers lexicon, Mr Green will depart from the south side of Glasgow, leaving Ibrox marginalised by associate clubs and owners – and eternally reviled by opposing fans.

    View Comment
  44. christyboy

    christyboy


    Last one,honest. If all the previous members of The The decided to form a band running concurrently with Mr Johnson’s, would they be The The The ? Also if it’s in the rules that The rangers are due a split of the gate money, well in the spirit of things gone past, can we not just change the rules or organise a secret six-way agreement whereby all other multi-way agreements are dismantled. On a more serious note, can anyone tell me whether The Skylanders action figures would be suitable for a 5 year old ?

    View Comment
  45. valentinesclown

    valentinesclown


    :jimlarkin says
    Sunday, December 23, 2012 at 12:13
    1 0 Rate This
    ohhappydayz

    heres the link to stuart cosgrove (and tom “sit on the fence” english)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01px4f0

    —————————————————————————————————————–

    Thanks

    View Comment
  46. shield2012


    vforvernacular says:
    Friday, December 21, 2012 at 15:59
    2 0 Rate This
    TW (@tartanwulver) says:
    Friday, December 21, 2012 at 15:54

    vforvernacular says:
    Friday, December 21, 2012 at 15:44

    And so the trolling nonsense derails the debate…….
    —————————————-
    Then again v, the current topic is ‘the Dismal Art of Whataboutery’, so it’s actually ON topic!

    ========================

    Ironic to see isn’t it?

    ———————————————

    You don’t like/approve of what I’m saying……….so it’s ‘trolling nonsense’??

    View Comment
  47. Massive support from Clumpany Towers, which I know will be echoed everywhere. https://t.co/DYGVxqksu1

    "The words Jackson chose to write today could be potentially damaging to a very small charity like ours"

    https://t.co/9EAQs8CBNt

    50 Years Ago Today: Jinky sees red as poor run continues 23rd September 1967: Celtic v St Johnstone – League https://t.co/IUAcIl73XI

    In hide and seek terms, they have some way to go to beat your lack of comment on BTC outcome & whether there should be an independent review https://t.co/s5SPou4MFD

    Please share folks, especially with those who still don't get it.

    https://t.co/yLFe1ncPfQ

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