The Blind Men and the Elephant, a cautionary tale

A Guest Blog for TSFM by beatipacificiscotia

As a child I read a poem by John Godfrey Saxe, “The Blind Men and the Elephant”, and stumbled upon it again recently.  It is a simple tale of how six blind men encounter an Elephant and attempt to describe the animal:

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
“God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a WALL!”

You get the idea.  The other blind men did little better.  The second grabbed the tusk and thought the elephant like a spear.  Others thought the elephant like a snake (the trunk), a tree (the leg), a fan (the ear), and finally a rope (the tail).  What does this have to do with this blog?  Let me explain.

There is a danger of all of us, whether consciously or unconsciously, making the same mistake as these blind gentleman.  It is too easy to use the parts of the argument that fit our values and belief system, at the expense of the whole truth.  The 13th century Jaina scholar, Mallisena, described a much earlier version of the same tale as a parable to argue that people deny various aspects of truth; deluded by the aspects they do understand, they deny the aspects they don’t understand.  He said:

“Due to extreme delusion produced on account of a partial viewpoint, the immature deny one aspect and try to establish another. This is the maxim of the blind (men) and the elephant.”

I am incapable of putting it any better than that, though I would go further.  I argue that people are deluded by the aspects that they choose to understand, and deny the aspects that they refuse to understand.  Which leads me to my tale …..

I have recently read a news report about a decision taken by the Advertising Standards Authority on advertising activities of The Rangers Football Club Ltd and their claims to history and honours.  It includes the following quote referring to advice from the SFA:

“We also consulted with the SFA, which confirmed that its definition of a football ‘club’ varied depending on context, and could sometimes refer to an entity separate from the club’s corporate owner.”

I was most unhappy to read this part of the statement.  I am yet to see the definition or statement of when you could “sometimes refer to an entity separate from the club’s corporate owner”.  This is a contradiction to the definition of a football club given by FIFA; a definition which is handed down to the Confederations, and from Confederations to Associations. 

You may or may not be aware, the application of good governance in football is administered through club licensing.  This annual process ensures that minimum standards are maintained, to promote growth and development, and ultimately protects all of football – every club, every player and staff member, the integrity of every competition, suppliers of goods and services, the reputation of sponsors, and most of all the fans.  FIFA Club Licensing Regulations state that a license applicant must be a football club, defined as:

“Legal entity fully and solely responsible for the football team participating in national and international club competitions that applies for a licence.”

This is a clear and unambiguous definition, which is being ignored by the SFA.  Why is this issue so important?  Simply, a football club must be held responsible for its commercial activities.  For example, an over-ambitious and over-spending Rangers changed the Scottish football landscape forever.  Other clubs tried to compete in an unsustainable “Cold War”-like football arms race.  I believe Scottish football was damaged.  Many clubs have been taken to the brink of death.  This could happen in any country, in any league, anywhere in the world.  For that reason, a football club and its corporate body must be one and the same, living or dying, inseparably intertwined.  The separation of club and company is a myth, a myth dangerous to good governance.  Rangers (1872-2012) should be a cautionary tale told to every club owner.

There are many benefits to club licensing.  These including minimum standards for stadia and infrastructure, youth development programs, and much more.  I would heartily recommend that you read the FIFA document if you have the time. It gave birth to the word and spirit of Financial Fair Play.  Look at some of the financial benefits detailed:

 

10.3  Benefits

Implementation of the financial criteria will help deliver both short and long-term improvements for clubs, the licensors and the football family in general.  For the football family in general, the financial criteria should help to:

• safeguard the continuity and integrity of competitions;

• increase the transparency and credibility of clubs’ financial operations;

• improve confidence in the probity of the football industry;

• create a more attractive market for the game’s commercial partners and investors; and

• provide the basis for fair competition, because competition is not just about the teams on the pitch.

 

For the licensors, the financial criteria should help to:

• improve their understanding of the financial position and prospects of their member clubs;

• encourage clubs to settle liabilities to creditors on a timely basis;

• enhance transparency in the money flow of clubs;

• enhance their ability to be proactive in assisting clubs with financial issues; and

• provide a starting point for club benchmarking at a national level for those licensors and clubs who want to develop this aspect.

 

For the clubs, the financial criteria should help to:

• improve the standards and quality of financial management and planning activities;

• enable better management decision-making;

• enhance clubs’ financial and business credibility with stakeholders;

• improve financial stability; and

• enhance revenue-generating ability and cost management.

 

Important words, and I trust the value and opportunity these regulations offer are now clear.  Note bullet points 3 and 4, and that our top league currently does not have a sponsor.  The SFA must ensure the integrity of competitions, discourage financial recklessness, and protect football for everyone.  This is only possible with a clear, unambiguous statement that confirms club / company are one and the same thing.

To suggest a football club can in some way survive liquidation is to undermine the definition of what is a football club, one of the cornerstones of FIFA Club Licensing Regulations.  For the SFA to suggest a football club can in some way survive liquidation, or allow this belief to go unchallenged, is a shameful dereliction of duty.  It puts all of football in danger.  We cannot allow this.  There is too much at stake.

The poem ends thus:
And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

The blind men were each partially right, though in their vanity / stubbornness / ignorance they failed to find the truth.  There is a lesson for us all in this story.  This may appear to be an attempt to renew the old club / new club debate.  It is not.  To see this as an opportunity to score points against Rangers fans is to completely miss the point – you have failed to find the truth.

This is global issue affecting one of the fundamentals of good governance.  Good governance must be the beating heart of our game – ensuring good health and long life.  I am looking at the here and now, and ahead into the future. 

We must protect and promote ALL of the FIFA Club Licensing Regulations.  To deny any part is to refuse to see the whole elephant, like the foolish blind men.

Trisidium

Trisidium

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

1,867 Comments
  1. hamemadesoup


    Greenock Jack says:
    February 9, 2014 at 2:37 pm
    2 1 Rate This
    ”Albion Rovers shouldn’t be disrespected by posters with a presumption of outcome”

    —————————
    That’s exactly what YOU said . ”shouldn’t be disrespected ” .
    I said ” Stating Albion Rivers are the smallest team left in the draw is being disrespectful ? Are you serious ?”

    Stating fact is not disrespectful .

    View Comment
  2. Palacio67


    scottc says:
    February 9, 2014 at 2:59 pm
    3 0 Rate This

    Greenock Jack says:
    February 9, 2014 at 2:55 pm

    I believe that 3 years of audited accounts are required before a license will be granted to play in Europe.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I think it is 3 years uninterrupted membership of the SFA

    ————————————
    Quite correct. Interestingly this was printed in the Sun on Friday stating that should TRFC win the Scottish Cup they will be illegible to play in the Europa league. But they again mentioned the old lie of the lack of audited accounts which suit the Myth of the same club myth.
    I will try and find a link for the piece.
    Strange how no-one ever mentions the truth in the SMSM in regards to this scenario.

    View Comment
  3. bobferris


    I’ve never really bought into the dodgy draws theory but I understand the erosion of trust among many. I remember Celtic and Rangers being drawn together in the third round in the 90s and that was hardly what the sponsors or the SFA would have wanted. Anyway, who is to say that Rovers, having beaten a top Premiership side already in their run and yet to lose a single goal, cannot beat a team from the division above, like they did yesterday. And who knows what state “Rangers” will be in by the end of this week, let alone March 8th.

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  4. bobferris


    It was equally stupid to decide on Celtic Park as the final venue whilst Celtic were still in the competition, superior stadium or not.

    View Comment
  5. Greenock Jack


    ……………………………….

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  6. upthehoops


    bobferris says:
    February 9, 2014 at 3:18 pm
    =========================
    If you look back over the years the evidence of a dodgy draw is rather flimsy.

    Thankfully though, I can now offer a view where a look back through my posts will show I am no revisionist. I said at the time the SC final and semi-final venues were announced the SFA should have waited to see the teams involved. We are now faced with a situation where Rangers have a favourable home draw with a chance to get to a semi final at home where they could have over 40,000 of the crowd. That simply can’t be fair.

    View Comment
  7. hamemadesoup


    Greenock Jack says:
    February 9, 2014 at 3:24 pm
    4 0 Rate This

    HMS
    AR being the ‘smallest’ team left in the draw is I think a fact.
    I was referring to the outcome of the cup-tie and that to presume the qualification of Rangers without reasonable caveat would be IMO somewhat disrespectful.

    ————————————–
    Fair doos ,Jack . Crossed wires at best . I was referring to the fact they were ”drawn” together , not the outcome , as it would be foolish to predict most results after yesterday’s games . I’d have put my house on that bein the draw for Sevco . Home tie (no 5star accommodation to shell out for ) and the smallest team left in the competition . Lo and behold , come cup draw time , it’s there in black and white . Sevco v Albion Rovers !

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  8. billyj1


    Why is everyone getting all hot and bothered over who a third tier team drew in the Scottish Cup and whether they are at home or away.
    In the scheme of things in Planet Fitba they are an irrelevance.
    They may not even survive the next few months.

    View Comment
  9. Smugas


    Ernie

    Thanks for the reply. Agree re decline. Implosion was effect albeit a massively self inflicted effect, certainly not the cause.

    On crowds – yes I was trying to compare Celtic FC today as a european contendor, and hence the core support they draw with Utd and Aberdeen under similar circumstances hence the 80’s links. 10k at Tannadice, come on!

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  10. Palacio67


    Sorry I cannot post a pic of the piece in the Sun on Friday so here is the text.

    ” The SFA have insisted that Rangers will not qualify for Europe even if they lift the Scottish Cup. At present the winners are granted the best Europa League slot– a place in the second qualifying round in mid-July.
    But Gers are not eligible to compete after going into administration then liquidation in 2012. It is a consequence of failing to provide audited accounts for three successive years, which UEFA insists upon as a condition for providing a license to enter the Champions league or Europa League”

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  11. Paulmac2


    Greenock Jack says:
    February 9, 2014 at 11:45am
    Something tells me that in May, Rangers will lift the SC at Parkhead.
    It would be another one of football’s delicious ironies.
    ………………………………………………………….
    Only to be excluded from Europe….that certainly would be worth waiting to see how the authorities explained that one!

    View Comment
  12. torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958)


    scottc says:
    February 9, 2014 at 2:59 pm

    17

    0

    Rate This

    Greenock Jack says:
    February 9, 2014 at 2:55 pm

    I believe that 3 years of audited accounts are required before a license will be granted to play in Europe.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I think it is 3 years uninterrupted membership of the SFA
    —————————————-
    I believe,maybe wrongly that if the SFA insist that TRFC are the same club,then outstanding tax/VAT of circa £14m,unpaid by CW,coupled with the WTC of around £4m would exclude TRFC from obtaining a Euro licence.This problem could of course be exacerbated by a negative result from the UTT which could add another £50m or so to the outstanding amount.

    View Comment
  13. Danish Pastry


    scottc says:
    February 9, 2014 at 2:59 pm
    19 0 Rate This

    Greenock Jack says:
    February 9, 2014 at 2:55 pm

    I believe that 3 years of audited accounts are required before a license will be granted to play in Europe.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I think it is 3 years uninterrupted membership of the SFA
    ————-

    Does that include ‘conditional membership’?

    Anyone know if TRFC have full, or merely conditional SFA membership?

    View Comment
  14. Paulmac2


    Greenock Jack says:
    February 9, 2014 at 2:55 pm

    ‘Something tells me that in May, Rangers will lift the SC at Parkhead.
    It would be another one of football’s delicious ironies.’

    AG
    Quickly followed by the realisation that you would not be able to represent your country in the Europa League
    ———————————————————–
    I believe that 3 years of audited accounts are required before a license will be granted to play in Europe.
    However, in the scenario of Rangers winning the Cup there was also talk of dispensation being possible if the relevant authorities thought it just.

    Whether this was only gossip and not founded in fact I don’t know.
    Anyone know for sure?
    …………………………………
    It is not for the SFA to decide…the rule prohibiting a club from participation is a UEFA rule…that excludes clubs who have not been in membership for 3 years…3 years accounts whilst relevent is the line they want you to follow in order to keep the mantra going of same club nonsense…

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  15. beatipacificiscotia


    With regards to Rangers winning the Scottish Cup – some people are clearly concerned this might happen. Remember, Rangers are yet to meet a top division team. I have watched them on a few occasions this season and can safely say they are rubbish. Aberdeen and Dundee Utd would tear them to shreds and Inverness and St Johnstone would likely see them off too. And no guarantee they would beat one of the smaller team either if they get lucky with the draw.

    If the do win it – so what, big deal, let the Rangers fans have their day in the sun. I don’t believe they will though.

    View Comment
  16. Cluster One

    Cluster One


    Danish Pastry says:
    Anyone know if TRFC have full, or merely conditional SFA membership?
    They became full members under the new SPFL

    View Comment
  17. justbecauseyoureparanoid


    2 0 Rate This

    Greenock Jack says:
    February 9, 2014 at 2:55 pm

    ‘Something tells me that in May, Rangers will lift the SC at Parkhead.

    Something tells me that you should wear a mask when using high strength adhesives

    View Comment
  18. neepheid

    neepheid


    Cluster One says:
    February 9, 2014 at 5:12 pm
    0 0 Rate This

    Danish Pastry says:
    Anyone know if TRFC have full, or merely conditional SFA membership?
    They became full members under the new SPFL
    ======================
    TRFC acquired the existing RFC membership of the SFA in late July 2012 under the terms of the 5 way agreement.

    View Comment
  19. McCaig`s Tower

    McCaig`s Tower


    easyJambo says:

    February 9, 2014 at 10:31 am

    Quantcast

    Fisiani says: February 9, 2014 at 10:18 am

    Does anyone know when The Rangers have to shell out half the gate money for the Scottish Cup tie to Dunfermline? Surely the gate takings are already known and the cheque posted. I’d want to cash that cheque soon. With Internet banking the funds should be transferred already.
    ======================
    Should already have received it on the day of the game.

    There is also a 5% levy to go to the SFA within 3 days.

    The home club is entitled to retain 20% of the receipts to cover expenses

    Rule 41(e) suggests that Rangers have 5 working days to pay the amount owed to Dunfermline.

    Incidentally, Dunfermline played Rangers on 11 February 2012 at East End Park and had considerable difficulty in getting the money owed for tickets sold by the Ibrox Club.

    (And of course last season, many other teams, such as Hamilton and Cowdenbeath also had difficulty getting monies owed from the Pars. Cowden ended up having a “neutral” gate for their game against Livi where Pars fans could turn up and contribute money towards the Pars’ debt to Cowden).

    View Comment
  20. ElCapitano2013


    As a long-time lurker, I am a bit dismayed about the number of people who take the time and effort to respond to a certain poster who always appears to be deliberately contentious and/or provocative, and on some occasions, will focus upon semantics/syntax as means of attempting to justify or prolong their own argument.

    Like most other people on here, I am all for open debate including outright disagreement on views, provided it’s within the spirit of the site. However, what appears to be repeated and deliberate attempts to distract or provoke a response becomes a bit tedious after a while…perhaps that’s the intention?

    View Comment
  21. jean7brodie

    jean7brodie


    neepheid says:
    February 9, 2014 at 5:24 pm

    TRFC acquired the existing RFC membership of the SFA in late July 2012 under the terms of the 5 way agreement.
    ———————————————————————–
    Hands up I’m thick. Can someone, anyone, explain to me clearly and in simple words, what the terms of this agreement were?

    View Comment
  22. scottc

    scottc


    Greenock Jack says:
    February 9, 2014 at 3:24 pm

    HMS
    AR being the ‘smallest’ team left in the draw is I think a fact.
    I was referring to the outcome of the cup-tie and that to presume the qualification of Rangers without reasonable caveat would be IMO somewhat disrespectful.

    I don’t know if you frequent RM at all, Jack. They are already talking about putting on some sort of ‘display’ at Parkhead for the final.

    View Comment
  23. scottc

    scottc


    upthehoops says:
    February 9, 2014 at 3:26 pm

    We are now faced with a situation where Rangers have a favourable home draw with a chance to get to a semi final at home where they could have over 40,000 of the crowd. That simply can’t be fair.

    Presumably, were Rangers to reach the semi-final at Ibrox the ticket allocation would be split evenly (relatively) as it would be if it were at Hampden. ???

    View Comment
  24. upthehoops


    scottc says:
    February 9, 2014 at 6:06 pm

    Presumably, were Rangers to reach the semi-final at Ibrox the ticket allocation would be split evenly (relatively) as it would be if it were at Hampden. ???
    =============================
    Absolutely, but I can’t see any of the teams left mustering 25,000 for a semi final. My 40,000 figure is based on some of the teams managing 10,000 max.

    View Comment
  25. andygraham.66


    Forget the argument over Europe, if this game is picked for Live TV coverage then the game has well and truly gone.

    View Comment
  26. easyJambo


    McCaig`s Tower says:February 9, 2014 at 5:26 pm

    Rule 41(e) suggests that Rangers have 5 working days to pay the amount owed to Dunfermline.
    ==========================
    Thanks for that. The copy of the rules I was looking at was from two years ago.

    View Comment
  27. upthehoops


    easyJambo says:
    February 9, 2014 at 6:13 pm
    0 0 Rate This

    McCaig`s Tower says:February 9, 2014 at 5:26 pm

    Rule 41(e) suggests that Rangers have 5 working days to pay the amount owed to Dunfermline.
    ==========================
    Thanks for that. The copy of the rules I was looking at was from two years ago.
    ================================
    Have I missed something? Is there a suggestion they have not paid Dunfermline the gate share from Friday?

    View Comment
  28. Bill1903

    Bill1903


    andygraham.66 says:
    February 9, 2014 at 6:10 pm
    1 0 Rate This

    Forget the argument over Europe, if this game is picked for Live TV coverage then the game has well and truly gone.
    —————————-
    Inverness v Dundee United is the obvious tie but Sky might go for The Rangers v Rovers game.(massive world wide audience etc) 😳

    View Comment
  29. easyJambo


    upthehoops says: February 9, 2014 at 6:15 pm
    ——————————
    Nothing untoward. Someone asked what the rule was earlier in the day.

    View Comment
  30. Palacio67


    Well of topic here, but I am watching a stream from Benfica V Sporting, where the game is being held up because bits of plastic and insulation is falling from a section of the roof. I believe this stadium is hosting the CL final as well this year.

    Edit
    Stadium has been emptied and game postponed. Looked like a sell out.

    View Comment
  31. Lord Wobbly


    scottc says:
    February 9, 2014 at 6:03 pm
    0 0 Rate This
    Greenock Jack says:
    February 9, 2014 at 3:24 pm
    HMS

    I don’t know if you frequent RM at all, Jack. They are already talking about putting on some sort of ‘display’ at Parkhead for the final.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Now that would be a perfect opportunity for some humour. Something from a ‘Rangers’ fans perspective, but that is actually funny (ie like the ‘four horsemen of the apocalypse’ but not like the ‘zombie shooting balaclava wearing gunman’).

    How about:

    the four who had a dream, depicted as The Who, proclaiming…

    ‘Here’s the new boss, same as the old boss’

    Scottish football needs a strong funny bone

    View Comment
  32. Resin_lab_dog


    Greenock Jack says:
    February 9, 2014 at 2:37 pm

    17

    26

    Rate This

    HMS
    Do they heat plastic balls?
    You can’t take anything for granted, look at what Morton and Albion Rovers themselves achieved earlier in the season.

    Albion Rovers shouldn’t be disrespected by posters with a presumption of outcome.

    _____________________________________

    Agreed.
    If TRFC admin ahead of the tie, it could be a seriously weakened side facing Albion.
    Bottom line is that the next admnin will have to be a proper one, or it won’t achieve its aims.

    View Comment
  33. bobferris


    Forget the argument over Europe, if this game is picked for Live TV coverage then the game has well and truly gone.
    ———————

    Well, one plus if it is and it’s Sky, Albion Rovers will pocket another £82,500 on top of the gate split (incidentally it seems to have been £82,500 forever, can anyone confirm if this is indeed the amount paid, has it always been this amount and what do BBC pay in comparison). Rovers announced recently a commitment to do up the terracing opposite the main stand, which should see them able to host matches like the Motherwell game so any extra money towards this can only be a good thing.

    View Comment
  34. Danish Pastry


    bobferris says:
    February 9, 2014 at 7:14 pm
    3 0 Rate This

    Well, one plus if it is and it’s Sky, Albion Rovers will pocket another £82,500 on top of the gate split …
    ———–

    Put that way, bring it on. Finally one of the less well-off clubs getting a big cheque. Bless them, they deserve every penny … er … I do mean Albion Rovers, by the way.

    View Comment
  35. rabtdog


    Albion Rovers notwithstanding, The Rangers will have to beat two Premier sides, probably, in order to lift the Scottish Cup, semi and final. Inverness & Dundee Utd, St Johnstone & Aberdeen, whatever. Seriously? I wouldn’t bet on that, even though they’ve been potentially gifted a home semi by Ogilvie & Co.

    View Comment
  36. Greenock Jack


    …………………………..

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  37. hamemadesoup


    Greenock Jack says:
    February 9, 2014 at 8:49 pm
    0 1 Rate This

    Congratulations Jack , the Godwins Law trophy is all yours . 🙄

    View Comment
  38. Danish Pastry


    Next match and gate income on 22 February.

    Leaves almost two weeks to get other stuff ‘sorted’.

    Any bets?

    * Wallace out, an Easdale in?

    * Craig Whyte appears?

    * Imran gets Green backing?

    * VAT paid/unpaid?

    * Staff cuts?

    Twelve days is a long time.

    View Comment
  39. Famous song


    I TU’d GJ’s video, so bury me if you will. OT to some extent, but the best version I saw was one where our Austrian friend has discovered Miley Cyrus has done a cover of Smells Like Teen Spirit. Comedy gold, as I believe you youngsters say.

    View Comment
  40. sickofitall


    Today, 8:47 PM Post #25447 [Tweet]

    Occasional Substitute
    Group:
    Members
    Favourite all-time player
    Jimmy Johnstone
    Patna Joe ‏@l300smc 1h
    @AvengingAngel10 @moo_ted @PJBHoops Sir Campbell not doin the draw today ????
    Reply Retweet Favorite More Expand
    moo ‏@moo_ted 1h
    @l300smc @AvengingAngel10 @PJBHoops Sir Campbell is currently seeking legal advice..

    moo ‏@moo_ted 1h
    @PJBHoops @AvengingAngel10 this is mega serious for 2 SFA staff. I can’t say anymore right now.
    Is this just made up rubbish .

    View Comment
  41. Greenock Jack


    …………………………………

    View Comment
  42. Castofthousands


    Greenock Jack says:
    February 9, 2014 at 8:49 pm

    “Celtic CEO reacts to Cup Defeat.”
    ——————————-
    GJ, I’m not your biggest fan. I’m not always sure you contribute in the spirit of the blog but that is my own personal take and we are all entitled to our opinions.

    The video clip is not the best use of the footage I have seen but it is mildly amusing in places. Certainly, seeing the ‘shoe on the other foot’ is a bit discomfitting but I am a lover of controversy and am content to digest it in that spirit. I can embrace it even because it might demonstrate that the blog is not wedded to predetermined agendas.

    View Comment
  43. ptd1978


    What was wrong with the singing about Lennon? Was it sectarian in any way? I haven’t heard it, but I can’t see what’s wrong with it unless a line was crossed.
    Just cos he received unacceptable abuse last week doesn’t mean he needs to be treated with kid gloves.
    Celtic have had songs about Rangers managers in the past. Is that out of order now? I must have missed that memo.

    View Comment
  44. Not The Huddle Malcontent


    torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) says:
    February 9, 2014 at 4:49 pm
    27 0 Rate This

    scottc says:
    February 9, 2014 at 2:59 pm

    17

    0

    Rate This

    Greenock Jack says:
    February 9, 2014 at 2:55 pm

    I believe that 3 years of audited accounts are required before a license will be granted to play in Europe.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I think it is 3 years uninterrupted membership of the SFA
    —————————————-
    I believe,maybe wrongly that if the SFA insist that TRFC are the same club,then outstanding tax/VAT of circa £14m,unpaid by CW,coupled with the WTC of around £4m would exclude TRFC from obtaining a Euro licence.This problem could of course be exacerbated by a negative result from the UTT which could add another £50m or so to the outstanding amount.

    ==============================================================

    will be an interesting wee debate at the end of the season….assuming Sevco are still going strong by then of course.

    lets assume they do win the scottish cup…..they will no doubt ask the SFA to put them forward for Europa competition

    What will the SFA tell UEFA?

    1. It’s the same club and they HAVE 3 years membership….in which case, the old tax issues may become a problem

    Other than it’s a different company argument, i don’t see how this tax issue can be avoided.

    2. The SFA will say they don’t have 3 years membership as they are a new club…..that will upset many bears but that then opens the door to the question of “history” as it will of course mean that Sevco have not won 54 titles

    3. (and this is what will happen) is that the SFA will put forward their application and ask for special dispensation despite not being members for 3 years. They will tell UEFA they are a new club, they will tell the press they are the old club, the line about being suspended for 3 years will be trotted out LOTS, the SFA will of course make “sporting merit” arguments in the press….all the while, in private, they will be maintaining to uefa it is a new club, and they got there on sporting merit and deserve the place….no mention of shedding debts/unpaid tax etc

    In the end, the myth of same club will be preserved on these shores and the lie of “3 years accounts” will be the excuse to cover it all up.

    Doesn’t actually matter if they get into europe of not next year by winning the Scottish Cup – the story on how the myth will be maintained is already written. And they are all hoping they’ll get a break from UEFA and that will confirm the myth.

    Part of me hopes they win it and we get to play this out for real, but a bigger part of me hopes they go bust and we don’t have to discuss it.

    as for the competition itself – gutted Celtic are out, i fully blame Neil Lennon and i think his time has come (though i never wanted him appointed in the 1st place) Hope Aberdeen do the double now – pumping sevco on the way.

    My one crumb of comfort is that they won’t get the chance to talk of an Old Firm showdown this year – and i’m sure time is on my side to ensure it never happens again.

    View Comment
  45. Danish Pastry


    What a Stramash says:
    February 9, 2014 at 9:21 pm
    6 1 Rate This
    ———-

    I once made some similar comments on Facebook on a blue forum. Some VB characters were not well pleased. Went on the defensive and told me I had a problem.

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  46. nawlite


    Greenock Jack says:

    February 9, 2014 at 9:35 pm

    I was/am serious. I know it is always presented as banter/humour, but it’s based on a real dislike (at best) of the other side, isn’t it, and that’s not for me? Maybe I’m on the wrong forum. From now on I’ll only comment (if at all) on fairness issues.

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  47. Paulmac2


    In terms of fans singing….I really don’t see the problem as long as it’s intended to be funny or take the p***..

    The debate on here reminds me of a match many years ago when Scotland were playing in the European Championships against the Germans in Germany (I think it was)…Germany as you would imagine were winning 2-0…when suddenly the Tartan Army busrt into song with….’there’s only one bomber Harris’..

    Now some may find that in bad tatse…but it was really funny at the time…however the Germans had no clue who this Bomber Harris was so the jibe went as flat as witches t** as they say!

    As Alan Alda once said humour is when you laugh with some one not at them..

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  48. parttimearab


    Rumours abound that Wallace being blocked from cost cutting.

    Now it would seem that he’s knocking back bids for players without consulting the manager.

    And the managers delighted by this

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-transfer-news/rangers-boss-ally-mccoist-reveals-3128460?

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  49. John Clark


    jean7brodie says:
    February 9, 2014 at 5:37 pm
    ‘….Can someone, anyone, explain to me clearly and in simple words, what the terms of this agreement were?’
    ———
    Jean7brodie:Have you a copy of the 18 pages that CF put out, purportedly a copy (at the time, unsigned ) of the terms of the 5-way agreement, and can’t understand them, or have you not seen that copy?

    All the 5 participants were sworn to secrecy, and as far as I know the threat of the sword at the naked left breast has in fact kept them all tight-lipped. So all we have is what CF gave us-but it is probably pretty accurate.

    It was the rottenest deed of malfeasance ever perpetrated by the Football Authorities, destructive of any notion of sporting integrity and making hypocritical liars and cheats of the men who participated, rendering them wholly unfit for office as guardians of and legislators for our game.

    But you knew that already, eh? 😀

    I have the 18 pages somewhere on OfficeNow, but I’m sure some other poster will give you a link, if you need the text as opposed to an explanation of what it means! ( I don’t know how to get what I’ve got into something that I can click on as a link!)
    ( apologies for the false start)

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  50. Resin_lab_dog


    rabtdog says:
    February 9, 2014 at 7:47 pm

    21

    2

    Rate This

    Albion Rovers notwithstanding, The Rangers will have to beat two Premier sides, probably, in order to lift the Scottish Cup, semi and final. Inverness & Dundee Utd, St Johnstone & Aberdeen, whatever. Seriously? I wouldn’t bet on that, even though they’ve been potentially gifted a home semi by Ogilvie & Co.
    _____________________________

    Don’t write off Stranraer. I’m a Caley fan and we certainly haven’t.
    And I expect my team to give them the respect they are due. That replay was thoroughly earned.

    View Comment
  51. Danish Pastry


    parttimearab says:
    February 9, 2014 at 10:11 pm
    1 0 Rate This

    Rumours abound that Wallace being blocked from cost cutting.

    Now it would seem that he’s knocking back bids for players without consulting the manager.

    And the managers delighted by this

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-transfer-news/rangers-boss-ally-mccoist-reveals-3128460?
    ———-

    I’d just seen that. Perhaps he feels his cost-cutting will be easier to implement when they actually run out of money?

    View Comment
  52. Paulmac2


    Resin_lab_dog says:
    February 9, 2014 at 10:17 pm
    ………………………………..

    Indeed it is not uncommon for teams to fall into the trap of believing getting a replay back at home is as good as won the tie…I am sure Stranraer will believe they have nothing to lose and give it a go…

    View Comment
  53. Castofthousands


    john clarke says:
    February 9, 2014 at 10:12 pm

    “but I’m sure some other poster will give you a link”
    ————————————-
    Here is one version of the 5 way agreement. It is a detailed document and not for the faint hearted :

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/u6qvb6ltlqx11nn/5%20Way%20Agreement%20Draft%20Original.pdf

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  54. Cluster One

    Cluster One


    Danish Pastry says:
    Anyone know if TRFC have full, or merely conditional SFA membership?
    They became full members under the new SPFL….neepheid says: TRFC acquired the existing RFC membership of the SFA in late July 2012 under the terms of the 5 way agreement……………………………….the Scottish Football League Members agree to admit Sevco Scotland L imited as an Associate Member and agrees to permit Rangers F.C. to play in the League during Season 2012/13….
    TRANSFER FROM ASSOCIATE TO FULL MEMBERSHIP
    On completing four successive years as an Associate Member, a club may
    be admitted to membership of the League by resolution of the Members
    and without payment of any further application fee.
    They were given full membership when the SPFL began.

    The fact of the matter was they were given a conditional membership even though no such rule exists.that became an Associate membership(They had no vote).when the SPFL began they were given full membership

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  55. Castofthousands


    parttimearab says:
    February 9, 2014 at 10:11 pm

    “Now it would seem that he’s knocking back bids for players without consulting the manager.”
    ———————————
    Judging from the following extract from the article, should the headline not in fact be ‘Rangers acknowledge depth of their financial problems’.

    When asked if it was a club trying to take advantage of their perilous financial predicament, McCoist said: “That would be my guess given Graham’s comments to me and reaction to the bid.”

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  56. Paulmac2


    Resin_lab_dog says:
    February 9, 2014 at 10:22 pm
    …………………………………..
    Wow 15 grand a week….to play against 3rd tier clubs? forget whether he is overpriced or a saleable prospect….we need to know who agreed to that salary for that level of football…

    View Comment
  57. Cluster One

    Cluster One


    Re the membership…
    A Licence to play football will be issued to Sevco Scotland Ltd today, allowing Sunday’s Ramsdens Cup tie against Brechin City to go ahead.

    View Comment
  58. Danish Pastry


    Cluster One on February 9, 2014 at 10:27 pm
    1 0 Rate This

    … The fact of the matter was they were given a conditional membership even though no such rule exists.that became an Associate membership(They had no vote).when the SPFL began they were given full membership.
    ———-

    Full members since season 2013-14? That’s one year …

    View Comment
  59. Cluster One

    Cluster One


    Danish Pastry says:
    Full members since season 2013-14? That’s one year …
    YES THEY HAVE BEEN FULL MEMBERS FOR ALMOST 1 YEAR.
    not enough to get in to europe if they win the scottish cup this year or next 🙂

    View Comment
  60. Flocculent Apoidea


    It’s been a bit fractious in here, today. Reminded me of The Young Ones. “Guys! Guys! Look at us! Squabbling! Bickering, like children. What’s happened to us? We never used to be like this!”
    Strange it got like that at a time when strong rumours are flying around elsewhere.

    Carntyne – you asked about the timing of summer football. I’ll confess I don’t have an answer and thought the Russian league operated In the summer months but it seems it no longer does. Ireland and Sweden run from March with Sweden ending the Season in early November. I don’t know if that’s been an issue for Swedish sides or if teams have had to compete in their off-season, though. Presumably, they’ve got a solution, though their need to operate that way is more of a necessity than ours.

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  61. selfassessor


    “The club wishes to make clear that these allegations are totally inaccurate and that the chief executive and board of directors are fully focussed on the restructuring and rebuilding of Rangers Football Club as previously announced.

    Does this quote from Wallace suggest that a much worse situation exists than Phil alleges would be more accurate?

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  62. BigGav


    Cluster One says:
    February 9, 2014 at 10:27 pm

    The fact of the matter was they were given a conditional membership even though no such rule exists.
    —————-

    I think there has been widespread misunderstanding about the nature of the ‘conditional’ membership granted to Sevco as per the Five Way Agreement. Here is what the text (allegedly!) says:

    2.6 The SFA, the SPL, RFC and Sevco hereby agree that the transfer of the RFC Membership to Sevco is wholly suspensive and conditional on the transfer of the RFC Share to Dundee FC being registered by the SPL no later than midnight on 3rd August 2012.

    3.3 Pending Completion, the SFA confirm it has granted Sevco conditional Full Membership of the SFA to facilitate the playing of matches by Rangers FC for the period until midnight on 3rd August 2012. In the event that the transfer of the RFC Share to Dundee FC has not been registered by the SPL by that time, then this Agreement will automatically lapse and the arrangements set out herein will not come into effect; Sevco’s conditional Full Membership of the SFA will automatically lapse; and all player registrations held by the SFA will revert to RFC and Sevco’s interest will be cancelled.

    So the conditional membership was simply a temporary device to ensure the SPL share would be transferred from RFC to DFC in time for the new season, and Sevco’s SFA membership would have been revoked if the transfer had not been done within the stipulated timeframe.

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  63. Resin_lab_dog


    Paulmac2 says:
    February 9, 2014 at 10:36 pm

    3

    0

    Rate This

    Resin_lab_dog says:
    February 9, 2014 at 10:22 pm
    …………………………………..
    Wow 15 grand a week….to play against 3rd tier clubs? forget whether he is overpriced or a saleable prospect….we need to know who agreed to that salary for that level of football…

    _____________________________

    Don’t know Nicky’s number.
    But had heard that several TRFC players were on packages equating to £15K per week. Not surprising when you think of where they stay before a game, and look at the managers earnings.
    I was merely suggesting that an explanation as to why he may not have been moved on could be if he was one of the players on ‘normal’ wages (i.e. at a level willing to be paid by another cluib) with a sell on asset value, as opposed to one of those with a ludicrous salary and no sell on value.
    (If my name was Ian Black I’d be polishing my CV around abouit now!)

    View Comment
  64. HirsutePursuit


    http://www.scribd.com/doc/164650989/5-Way-Agreement-as-Issued-to-All-Parties-for-Signature

    I think people are confusing SFL, SPFL and SFA memberships.

    Sevco Scotland became registered members of the SFA when the SFL granted them associate membership of their league on 13th July 2012.

    SFA permission was required to allow Sevco Scotland use of the name of an existing club. For this reason they were allowed conditional use of RFC plc’s full SFA membership prior to their first ever game against Brechin. Had they not been given conditional use of the former club’s membership, Sevco could not have called themselves Rangers for that game.

    The original Rangers’ full SFA membership transfer to Sevco Scotland (by this time renamed The Rangers Football Club Ltd) was completed on 3rd August 2012.

    The new club were granted full SPFL membership when the SFL was dissolved and its member clubs transferred to the SPFL (formerly the SPL Ltd).

    You will note:
    “THE RANGERS FOOTBALL CLUB PLC (IN ADMINISTRATION), a company incorporated in Scotland (registered number SC004276) whose registered office is atIbrox Stadium, 150 Edmiston Drive, Glasgow G51 2XD (“RFC”), acting through the Joint Administrators (defined below);

    RFC is a public company limited by shares which (i) is a full member (as defined in the SFA Legislation (as defined below)) of the SFA; (ii) owns one of the twelve issued Shares in the SPL; and (iii) owned and operated an association football club known as “Rangers FC” (defined below) which played in the Scottish Premier League during season 2011/12.

    Rangers FC” means an association football club operated by RFC which played in the Scottish Premier League during season 2011/12 and previously;”

    Under SFA articles/rules the member is the company. For the purposes of this agreement, and of the SPL, the “Rangers FC” brand was an association club franchise owned by the former SFA member club.

    Hope this helps.

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  65. bobferris


    I seriously doubt Nicky Law is on anymore than £5k a week. His wage at Motherwell would probably be around £2k a week so there’s no chance of such a jump, even for spend thifts. I’ve heard the bulk of the SPL experienced players are on between 4k and 8k with maybe one or two above that (McCulloch and Wallace).

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  66. HirsutePursuit


    Sorry, meant to add (and I hope this doesn’t breach the OCNC ban!) the SFL accepted Sevco Scotland as an associate member because their articles/rules did not allow them to accept the new club as a continuation of the old.

    Had the SFL members accepted the franchise as “same club”, Sevco Scotland would have automatically been accepted as full members of the SFL.

    I add this only to help give some clarity where there is confusion over the various classes of membership of the footballing bodies.

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  67. TSFM


    New blog – skin for the Podcast now up.

    Put a stop to the Neil Lennon stuff. Aberdeen fans are not villains here. if you need to categorise them in this way, you are in the wrong place.
    I’ve just binned 30 (thirty) posts. Ridiculous rush to take offence for the second time in a week.
    Move on or be moved off.

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