Podcast Episode 4 – Turnbull Hutton

 

Turnbull Hutton

Turnbull Huttonis the chairman of Raith Rovers. He has been lauded by TSFM readers as a man of courage and integrity who shares our views about the game – and who has never shirked away from calling out those who don’t.

But what motivated him to take on the largely thankless challenge of devoting himself to his local team?

What are his plans for Raith Rovers? What are his views on the SFA, League reconstruction, Armageddon, and a whole load of other things.

Not to mention the savouring of a still-fresh recent cup win.

It would I think, take an earthquake of Jovian dimensions to disconnect Hutton’s connection to terra-firma. Born and brought up in Burntisland, he is wedded to plain speaking and of course to Raith Rovers.

My sense is of a man who eschews the Scottish Football Blazer culture, who is instinctively suspicious of politicians and other bandwagon jumpers, and who has a sense of optimism about the future of our game.

Like many other directors at clubs across the country, he and his colleagues are often required to dig deep into their own pockets to keep their clubs alive, their sole reward being the satisfaction of doing so (and the occasional cup win!).

Before retirement he was joint managing director of Diageo Operations Scotland, and in that role he helped facilitate the Bells sponsorship of Scottish football.

Just short of buying a Rovers Season ticket, I couldn’t have been more charmed, but had I expected a dewy eyed idealist with zealot’s agenda over the sins of the authorities, I would have been wrong.

Hutton is very much  pragmatist. He knows exactly what has gone wrong, but feels that the game most urgently needs some of Auldheid’s “Truth & Reconciliation” before it can sort itself out.

Hutton is a somewhat reluctant hero. He is flattered when I tell him of the regard he is held in here, and complimentary about the level of debate on TSFM, where is a regular reader .

When I spoke to Turnbull at his Edinburgh home, I was treated to a warm welcome by him and his wife Margot, as well as coffee, biscuits, chat, and a lesson in the dynamics of running a championship club; from leading a debt-ridden Rovers into profit last year, to the dilemmas inherent in boardroom redecoration 🙂

Podcast Download Link

ITunes Link

 

 

Big Pink

Big Pink

Big Pink is John Cole; a former schoolteacher based in the West of Scotland, He is also a print and broadcast journalist who is engaged in the running of SFM . Former gigs include Newstalk 106, the Celtic View, and Channel67. A Celtic fan, he is also the voice of our podcast initiative.

738 Comments
  1. wottpi


    Just catching up on yesterdays results.
    Nice to see Georgios Samaras achieving European success by winning the song contest last night.
    The boy has a plan B if the World Cup and a move from Celtic doesn’t go well!

    View Comment
  2. loamfeet


    ratethisthenyabampots says:
    May 11, 2014 at 1:18 am

    Whilst these playoffs are what we have all been crying out for, man alive they are flawed. As a Falkirk Bairn, we now face having played 210 minutes v QOS and battled through, we now face the possibility of another 120 mins v Accies who are rested and must be rubbing their hands in glee. All this before a shot at glory v a Premiership team in waiting [ .. ]

    ——————–

    The playoff structure is a bit mystifying. I am sure everybody would be more satisfied with 11th vs 4th and 2nd vs 3rd semi-finals followed by a final. Still, though, doesn’t Hamilton get that extra break by dint of finishing second?

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  3. andygraham.66


    It is loosely based on the Rugby league idea where the higher up the league you finish the less games you play and the team in last qualification place plays the most.

    But these teams are all in the same league and the set up is a reflection of league performance throughout the year

    This system has been designed to help the team in 11th in the big boys league (note that this phrase will never be uttered in 2014-15, especially if Hibs lose out)

    View Comment
  4. JackBauer


    ratethisthenyabampots says:
    May 11, 2014 at 1:18 am

    Whilst these playoffs are what we have all been crying out for, man alive they are flawed. As a Falkirk Bairn, we now face having played 210 minutes v QOS and battled through, we now face the possibility of another 120 mins v Accies who are rested and must be rubbing their hands in glee. All this before a shot at glory v a Premiership team in waiting [ .. ]

    ——————–
    The playoff game between Falkirk and Hamilton is another 2 legs Tuesday 13th and Sunday 18th. With the winners playing Hibs again over 2 legs on Wed 21st and Sunday 25th. Not a single match as your post suggests. Home leg 1st for Falkirk.

    View Comment
  5. ecobhoy


    upthehoops says:
    May 11, 2014 at 7:06 am
    ecobhoy says:
    May 11, 2014 at 12:13 am
    ==========================
    The report in the Herald a few months back stated an independent valuation decided Celtic must pay over £800K for London Road Primary School. If they do not do what they say they will do with the land the cost rises to £2M. Doesn’t seem like a sugar coated deal to me, especially when similar closed schools in Glasgow are apparently being sold for much less.
    ——————————————————-
    Tbh I’ve always thought that Celtic paid over the odds for the school but GCC had them over a barrel because it was going to be left to rot and remain a blot on the Celtic Park landscape a bit like Edmiston Hoose is at Ibrox.

    What the Bear Land Dunderheids conveniently forget or simply ignore because it doesn’t suit their agenda is that Celtic produced its proposals to renovate and use the school as part of their wider development in the Celtic Triangle. But there was a key phrase attached to the purchase offer – I have a slightly sore head and can’t be assed searching the document right now – which essentially meant that any project involving the building had to be financially viable.

    Celtic had costed its plans and thought they were viable but the building – owned by GCC – which had been slowly deteriorating since being left empty in 2004? suffered catastrophic water damage after the roof lead was stolen while still under GCC ownership. Again from memory I think that this was going to add at least £1 million to the Celtic refurbishment costs which financially torpedoed the club plans for the building and left demolition as the only option.

    Yea it’s sad to lose old buildings but there are plenty of the same type in Glasgow still in use for various purposes including as schools. A lot is made of its ‘B’ Listed status but I have always been a bit confused over the listing and it seems to me it has more to do with the fact that the school was a little oasis originally surrounded by the local industries and that there wasn’t much in the way of housing which would normally be the case with schools.

    So the guardians of listed buildings – who do next to nothing financially to save them unless they are very top of the A-listed tree – seemed to think that the school was back in an original setting basically sitting in the middle of nowhere but now not even with any pupils or function. I have difficulty following their thinking!

    But these people in their A-Listed ivory tower seem not to care a hoot about the dilapidated school being broadcast to the world during the CG coverage and probably having a very negative effect on investment opportunities that could benefit the whole of Glasgow. I’m not even sure if they would have allowed what had become a blot on the landscape to be hidden behind hoardings celebrating the Games and the athletes taking part.

    View Comment
  6. penguin7


    upthehoops says:
    May 11, 2014 at 9:33 am

    He was also quoted as saying that he had no knowledge whatsoever of players contracts.

    No bonus for winning the league does not necessarily mean no bonus for promotion.

    View Comment
  7. Matty Roth

    Matty Roth


    TSFM says:
    May 11, 2014 at 9:18 am
    0 0 Rate This

    Interesting comment by Richard Wilson on BBC website. Whilst having a sideswipe at Graham Wallace’s about his bonus in contrast with admin redundancies at Ibrox, he also claimed that the players have been paid no bonus for winning the league.
    I have been preoccupied recently with other stuff, but I am sure I wouldn’t have missed that factlet?
    Is this another MSM-dispensed “fact” or is it actually true I wonder?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/27272543

    ===================================

    I’ve seen that mentioned elsewhere in the MSM, so perhaps there is some truth in it.

    On the other hand, so many of these sources seem to have a remarkable level of synchronisity in timing, wording, detail and accuracy (or lack of) when reporting anything related to new Rangers.

    And of course most similar cut backs related to old and new Rangers were reported as wage and bonus sacrifices but were I believe actually just deferrals, to be paid at a later point.

    Perhaps the club couldn’t afford to pay the bonuses at the season end so have promised to pay them at a later date?

    View Comment
  8. ptd1978


    I doubt the playoff structure will change until Rangers are in the top division. If they do have a points deduction to overcome, or they simply aren’t good enough to live with Hearts and Hibs/Hamilton/Falkirk, we might see a one leg structure introduced to decrease the number of honest mistakes required to get them over the line. If they limp on into the top flight then I would imagine the play-offs will disappear pronto if they’re still a very poor footballing side.

    View Comment
  9. Castofthousands


    TallBoy Poppy says:
    May 11, 2014 at 7:23 am

    http://kerrydalestreet.co.uk/single/?p=12938090&t=9070302
    —————————————–
    The Zebra finance situation was posted up on the blog a couple of weeks ago and it did seem a bit mystifying that official records showed it as bust whilst elsewhere it seemed to still be trading. There seem to be numerous instances where public record cannot be trusted i.e. Companies House. At the time I think general incredulity created little reaction and the assumption for me was that Zebra were still a going concern. Of course nothing would surprise you in the circumstances.

    Here’s the link to the live website which has a dropdown where you can select your club. Rangers do not appear.

    https://www.seasonticketfinance.com/

    View Comment
  10. JimBhoy


    http://www.insolventcompanies.co.uk/zebra-finance-limited-03065024/
    Brown bag full of notes pay at the ticket centre…

    View Comment
  11. JimBhoy


    My son is a Man City fan I have always followed Liverpool… All the best to both teams today.

    View Comment
  12. Barcabhoy

    Barcabhoy


    Ryan Gosling

    You keep stating that public companies engaged in the same practices as Murray. That’s an easy claim to make , so let’s see you back it up. Can you give me a list of plc’s who tick all of the following boxes .

    1 guilty of tax evasion ( not avoidance)

    2 underfund staff pension plans by 50%

    3 have hundreds of £millions of loans written off in return for utterly worthless shares

    4 sell company assets to Chairman / CEO for vastly under book value / original price paid

    5 destroy a Scottish sporting institution

    6 where CEO/ Chairman take a £6 million EBT loan

    There are lots more area’s of scrutiny ,however you should easily be able to list quite a few plc’s to justify your claim that Murray’s conduct was commonplace , as opposed to my claim that it was uniquely damaging

    View Comment
  13. TallBoy Poppy

    TallBoy Poppy


    Castofthousands says:
    May 11, 2014 at 11:15 am
    ————————————-
    They certainly appear to be still trading as per the news story and are also taking season ticket monies from Celtic fans. The season ticket finance.com that you linked to appears to be one of several companies in the zebra group so perhaps the Scottish Clubs are dealt by one of them.

    View Comment
  14. ratethisthenyabampots


    Jack Bauer, my bad. That was a slightly inebriated typo. Should have been 210 not 120. Just a fluke that it looked like 90 + 30 extra time.

    View Comment
  15. JackBauer


    ratethisthenyabampots says:
    May 11, 2014 at 12:13 pm
    ———-

    No worries, didn’t want you missing out on any of the play off action!! Good Luck to Falkirk. I must admit to having a wee soft spot for them, having lived in Falkirk for a couple of years a while back. Many a fun night was had in Behind the Wall among other watering holes!!

    View Comment
  16. yourhavingalaugh

    yourhavingalaugh


    I am sure the 16 team premier league propegators will be turning up the heat shortly ,no relegation and 4 comming up next season,problems solved before they appear.

    View Comment
  17. Huxleys Brave New World


    Just a thought but if 25k season tickets have been sold and its on a cash only basis you’d have thought someone would have taken a picture of the crowds which must have gathered down Govan way this week to but then? Surely too good an opportunity for the new PR guy to miss…

    View Comment
  18. RyanGosling

    RyanGosling


    Barcabhoy,

    My exact comments on the subject were:
    “I don’t think he was doing anything out of the ordinary”
    “Almost everybody pre 2008 was borrowing excessive amounts of money and claiming huge profits and wages, assuming the borrowing would be repaid with future profits which never materialised”
    “There were many more during the same period who were doing much worse purely because they were better at milking the golden goose than Murray was”

    I don’t think any of these statements would amount to me “keep stating that public companies engaged in the same practices as Murray”. I also think that your demand that I produce examples of companies engaged in a very specific list of exact actions of Murray is deliberately far fetched. While there are examples of many of the things on your list, it doesn’t mean that examples have to match the Murray Group deed for deed for my comments to be relevant. My comments as listed above were a general observation that Murray was not alone in questionable corporate behaviour which was immensely profitable to him and immensely damaging to others. This was not a defence of Murray, and I’m not sure why you seem to have been so affronted. None the less, I have attempted to provide some examples below as instructed.

    1. Guilty of Tax Evasion – An investigation by BBC Panorama claims HMRC were pursuing Bernie Ecclestone for a tax bill of £2 billion, but allowed him to settle for £10 million, in what could be the “biggest ever personal tax dodge”.

    Elsewhere in the world, Enron were also accused of dodging billions of dollars in taxes.

    2. Underfund pension scheme by 50% – In August 2013 FTSE 100 companies had a combined deficit of £43bn. And that’s just the FTSE 100, I haven’t looked into deficits elsewhere but the equity crash caused by the financial crisis, millions lost through for example BP’s difficulties and widespread de risking by pension trustees, pension deficits are far from unique and unfortunately if the company funding the scheme goes bust, the scheme is in a lot of trouble if it is in deficit. For the single worst example of an underfunded pension scheme, look at the UK state and public pension obligations versus the capability of the state to meet these obligations.

    Elsewhere in the world, Enron’s collapse wiped out $2billion in pension plans.

    3. Hundreds of millions of loans written off in exchange for worthless shares – last September Lloyds took ownership of all of £760m worth of De Vere Limited preferred ordinary shares in issue, through Uberior Equity Limited, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Uberior Investments, which is the former HBOS private equity arm. As a result, Lloyds now effectively controls De Vere Group.

    4. Sell company assets to chairman for vastly less than book value / original price – I haven’t found another example of this. Such deals can be complex and are always opaque. I highly doubt that the Murray case is the only instance of this.

    5. Destroy a Scottish sporting institution – Brooks Mileson destroyed Gretna, Gavin Masterton and Vladimir Romanov very nearly destroyed Hearts and Dunfermline.

    6. Chairman takes EBT loan – as at June 2013 HMRC has stated it has around 5,000 current enquiries into EBTs. The Murray Group was not unique in this.

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  19. ianagain

    ianagain


    17016 at Pittodrie 1k ‘well Armageddon my “rse

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  20. ianagain

    ianagain


    2nd Thanks very much Craig

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  21. yourhavingalaugh

    yourhavingalaugh


    Some poor decisions by the officials at Pittodrie today ,hope the Final next week is not affected by any,well done to Motherwell.

    View Comment
  22. TSFM


    Doncaster. Ouch !! 😳

    View Comment
  23. Jagsman


    On the question of paying for an Ibrox ST, is it not likely that the purchaser would just stick a cheque in the post, especially if they were one of Banff or Belfast “Loyal” supporters buses?
    Someone mentioned 19,000 as half last season’s number. That would be 17,000. They trumpeted the 38,000 sales for their first season of existence but this time round have been prone to quote 72,000 over 2 seasons. Which sounds better than bragging about a drop in sales of 4,000….
    ST holder at work is in no hurry to re-new as he is confident they will not be over-subscribed, ergo not much chance of losing “his” seat.
    I expect this will have been commented on, but the defence against Imran Ahmed’s claim indicating that institutional shareholders would provide funds should ST income fall seems to hand an advantage to the Kings men since it implies no negative consequence re the club from a successful campaign against purchase. Always assuming you were to believe them of course.

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  24. Danish Pastry


    Very good coverage of the match at Celtic Park from Sky. Congratulations to worthy Scottish Champions. And also to an inspirational DU team building for the future — and a cup final!

    Those black armbands, though, together with the two former players sitting side-by-side who’ve both suffered from cancer, were a huge reminder of the frailty of life. Very touching gestures, too, shown to that little lad at the end by both Neil Lennon and Georgio S. I’m glad the producers allowed the cameras to focus on these things.

    Isn’t Scottish football just better without the OF? So what ‘the rivalry’ is gone? I’d say the game is in a far better place than it’s ever been. DU were impressive. Today showed that it is not just about money, rivalry and winning at all costs.

    View Comment
  25. ecobhoy


    Danish Pastry says:
    May 11, 2014 at 3:19 pm

    Very good coverage of the match at Celtic Park from Sky. Congratulations to worthy Scottish Champions. And also to an inspirational DU team building for the future — and a cup final!
    ——————————————————
    Hey I thought D Utd would be taking it easy – so did Celtic I reckon till NL woke them up at halftime.

    I’ve gort the Sky coverage taped so will see how they handled it later. Still it’s days like this including the presentation celebrations that live in your memory for ever.

    And brill to see Big John hand out the medals rather than a stuffed suit who is a joke as far as the majority of Scottish football fans.

    And Big Sammy – what can I say – I have always blown hot & cold on him but he leaves and in his heart will be a Celt forever and he showed a personal side to his personality today with the yougster that I will always remember and respect.

    View Comment
  26. ecobhoy


    RyanGosling says:
    May 11, 2014 at 1:40 pm

    Barcabhoy,

    My exact comments on the subject were:
    “I don’t think he was doing anything out of the ordinary”
    ””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
    @Ryan – Perhaps he wasn’t doing anything out of the ordinary but generally Scots expect a higher moral standard than a lot of people and Murray failed it by a long chalk IMO ❗

    View Comment
  27. ecobhoy


    JimBhoy says:
    May 11, 2014 at 11:40 am

    My son is a Man City fan I have always followed Liverpool… All the best to both teams today.
    ========================
    What is really important is that you supported your son’s freedom of choice and displayed your own confidence as a human being by having no need to indoctrinate him to adopt your choice in justificaion of your own position.

    It really is that simple and highly laudable 🙂 🙂

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  28. TSFM


    ecobhoy says:

    May 11, 2014 at 3:42 pm And Big Sammy – what can I say – I have always blown hot & cold on him but he leaves and in his heart will be a Celt forever and he showed a personal side to his personality today with the yougster that I will always remember and respect.
    ________________________________________________

    Not so sure Peter Lawwell will agree with you there! 😈

    View Comment
  29. covethistlestolemypitch


    ecobhoy says:
    May 11, 2014 at 3:47 pm

    “generally Scots expect a higher moral standard than a lot of people”

    Hmm. Scots are just as moral or immoral as any other nationality. I’m surprised to see such talk on here.

    View Comment
  30. woodstein

    woodstein


    ecobhoy says:

    May 11, 2014 at 3:47 pm

    “Perhaps he wasn’t doing anything out of the ordinary but generally Scots expect a higher moral standard than a lot of people and Murray failed it by a long chalk IMO”
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    I totally agree with this.The phrase “Uberrima fides” Utmost Good Faith, which for anyone who wants to claim any integrity should be ingrained.

    Murray failed so did these guys, which at the time shocked me.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/27/newsid_2536000/2536035.stm

    View Comment
  31. jean7brodie

    jean7brodie


    woodstein says:
    May 11, 2014 at 4:31 pm
    ———————————————————–
    And Ernest Saunders made a full recovery for Alzheimers?

    View Comment
  32. Bill1903

    Bill1903


    ecobhoy says:
    May 11, 2014 at 4:06 pm
    6 0 Rate This

    JimBhoy says:
    May 11, 2014 at 11:40 am

    My son is a Man City fan I have always followed Liverpool… All the best to both teams today.
    ========================
    What is really important is that you supported your son’s freedom of choice and displayed your own confidence as a human being by having no need to indoctrinate him to adopt your choice in justificaion of your own position.

    It really is that simple and highly laudable
    ————————————————-
    Totally disagree
    It’s part of a fathers duty to influence,pressurise,bribe whatever to get them to support ‘your’ team.
    Freedom of choice doesn’t come into it!
    I would’ve been gutted if my son hadn’t followed the Dons 😳

    View Comment
  33. jean7brodie

    jean7brodie


    jean7brodie says:
    May 11, 2014 at 4:46 pm

    edit: …from Alzheimers.

    View Comment
  34. Danish Pastry


    Funny to see that Sky then went on to cover the EPL drama, which was a complete non-event, imo. Wenger called it right regarding FFP rule breakers Man City. Now there’s a tainted title if ever there was one.

    View Comment
  35. woodstein

    woodstein


    jean7brodie says:

    May 11, 2014 at 4:46 pm

    Not many people can make a full recovery from an incurable disease. 😆 🙄

    View Comment
  36. jean7brodie

    jean7brodie


    woodstein says:
    May 11, 2014 at 5:22 pm
    ———————————————————————–
    No Woodstein but money helps 😉

    View Comment
  37. ecobhoy


    neepheid says:
    May 11, 2014 at 5:27 pm
    ecobhoy says:
    May 11, 2014 at 3:47 pm

    @Ryan – Perhaps he wasn’t doing anything out of the ordinary but generally Scots expect a higher moral standard than a lot of people and Murray failed it by a long chalk IMO
    =========================
    Whatever Scots may expect, in terms of moral standards, they certainly haven’t been getting it over the last 20 years.
    ========================
    Agreed that’s the case. But that doesn’t mean we should abandon the concept. Indeed why else bother to post on here?

    View Comment
  38. ecobhoy


    covethistlestolemypitch says:
    May 11, 2014 at 4:18 pm
    ecobhoy says:
    May 11, 2014 at 3:47 pm

    “generally Scots expect a higher moral standard than a lot of people”

    Hmm. Scots are just as moral or immoral as any other nationality. I’m surprised to see such talk on here.
    ————————————————-
    And I’m surprised to see that any poster on here would be ‘surprised’ at another poster having the temerity to express what appears to be a contrary opinion.

    And in terms of whether Scots have a different kind of morality or not I would think our total rejection of Thatcher and her poll tax experiment does indeed display we have strong moral values.

    View Comment
  39. jean7brodie

    jean7brodie


    For those who aren’t totally aware of the ‘Guinness Trial’ it’s worth a look. Be prepared for the shocking corruption.

    View Comment
  40. Giovanni

    Giovanni


    jean7brodie says:
    May 11, 2014 at 5:56 pm

    I not only remember the trial but also the aftermath when we had the only recorded instance of someone “recovering” from alzheimers – Ernest Saunders.

    View Comment
  41. twopanda


    BDOs next missive – sort of `18 month review` – should appear [link] on, about or before 22 May – or possibly on a secure website. Perhaps more detail – perhaps. They do say it may take a considerable time to complete liquidation given the complexity – and `sensitivities` – at play. True, possible they`re holding for the UTTT – Page 1 – also CB Litigation P1 – But kinda feel 18 months should be enough time for the other two bullets page on Page 1 – or at least to outline direction in the way they may be forming.

    Is 18 months a fair timescale? – I don`t know.

    http://www.bdo.co.uk/services/business-restructuring/rfc-2012-plc-formerly-the-rangers-football-club-plc-in-liquidation

    View Comment
  42. Barcabhoy

    Barcabhoy


    Ryan Gosling

    Your response very very clearly in my view shows a clear attempt to minimise criticism of Murray. What you are doing is a very well established PR strategy. Agree that a subject has transgressed and then spend much more time and effort in attempting to show that whilst guilt is established ( impossible to argue otherwise) the crime is nowhere near as bad as is generally claimed.

    Let me attempt to put my interpretation of your actions to the blog.

    1 You are suggesting that the list of six points i made regarding Murray’s behaviour is far fetched. Maybe you could explain why that is, as they all seem to me to be absolutely factual .

    2 The actions were selected, because they impact directly on football and on Scotland, and this is the Scottish Football Monitor. Not the Enron/Goldman Sachs/ de Vere monitor

    3 It’s telling that you cannot produce a single example of a company either public or private who engaged in all of the disgraceful practices that Murray did. Instead you’re argument is based on dead companies in Texas for one point , an English hotel group for another, you “highly doubt ” another but can’t provide any examples. You then elevate Gretna to the status of a Scottish football institution as another argument !! Finally you throw in a general number of EBT users without giving the example you were asked for .

    Don’t you understand that Murray was guilty of each and every point made in my previous post,and your rebuttal has you referencing various organisations none of whom are relevant to Scottish football and none of whom you are able to show indulged in the all of the same practices as Murray. Your response actually confirms how outrageously Murray has behaved and contrary to your intentions it shows how uniquely he acted .

    You are making exactly the same arguments that Murray’s acolytes are making. In essence don’t go after Dave as everyone was at it. It’s not a credible position to take. “Guilt is irrelevant where there are multiple offenders” ! That’s clearly the line Murray is pushing or having pushed on his behalf .

    You made very loud public noises about Rangers supporters on here getting a tough time. That is true on occasion, but then this blog has had to deal with PR companies trying to hijack the mood of the blog , to protect guys like Murray and King. I am not saying you are doing this, however your responses in attempting to minimise criticism of Murray are familiar in that regard.

    You accepted earlier that Murray had behaved disgracefully. Most people, outside of Murray’s paid PR or those who are in fear of what he can put into the public arena, agree he has been a disgrace. In terms of this blog, and Scottish life in general how Enron or any of the others you mentioned , conducted themselves is not relevant. Murray should be subject to a very wide ranging public enquiry.

    He has been the most toxic individual in business in Scotland in my experience. I guess we differ in that you seem content to consign his behaviour to the past, where i believe dealing with him severely is necessary as a deterrent to anyone else inclined to cause the type of mayhem that he has.

    View Comment
  43. ecobhoy


    Barcabhoy says:
    May 11, 2014 at 6:08 pm

    Ryan Gosling

    Your response very very clearly in my view shows a clear attempt to minimise criticism of Murray. What you are doing is a very well established PR strategy. Agree that a subject has transgressed and then spend much more time and effort in attempting to show that whilst guilt is established ( impossible to argue otherwise) the crime is nowhere near as bad as is generally claimed.
    =====================================
    Absolutely on the button BB ❗

    View Comment
  44. ecobhoy


    twopanda says:
    May 11, 2014 at 6:06 pm

    BDOs next missive – sort of `18 month review` – should appear [link] on, about or before 22 May – Is 18 months a fair timescale? – I don`t know.
    =============================
    I doubt if anyone outwith the actual investigation could give an informed answer to that one. I’m afraid we’ll just need to wait and see and, in the meantime, get on with our normal lives.

    View Comment
  45. EKBhoy


    Sir David Murray = Scottish Enron , dear oh dear oh dear.

    …. Frank de Boer playing for petrol money is my favourite Murrayism or more commonly referred to as a lie.

    View Comment
  46. wottpi


    Can we take the wider SDM argument elsewhere?
    His effect on Scottish football through recklessly chasing the dream is what we should be discussing.
    (And most folks on here including Ryan, already acknowledge the damage)
    MIH pension holders etc , while deserving our concern, is not what this forum is about.
    Happy to agree that the SFA should have him booted out for all time but the rest of the damage to society and socio political economics arguments belong elsewhere.
    ‘Ryan baiting’ on matters that go beyond football just adds to the lads argument of why so few Rangers fans, decent or otherwise, don’t engage with this forum.

    View Comment
  47. Bill1903

    Bill1903


    ecobhoy says:
    May 11, 2014 at 6:13 pm
    5 14 Rate This

    Bill1903 says:
    May 11, 2014 at 4:47 pm
    ecobhoy says:
    May 11, 2014 at 4:06 pm

    Totally disagree. It’s part of a fathers duty to influence,pressurise,bribe whatever to get them to support ‘your’ team.
    Freedom of choice doesn’t come into it! I would’ve been gutted if my son hadn’t followed the Dons
    ============================
    I assume that this is a failed IMO attempt at being humorous – If not I pity you and feel very very sorry for your son.
    ———————-
    Save your pity for something more worthy
    My son and I have a fantastic relationship a great deal of it through following the Dons.
    I’m only glad I didn’t mention the fact that the English born lad supports Scotland!

    View Comment
  48. RyanGosling

    RyanGosling


    Barcabhoy that is now the second time you have accused me of employing PR tactics, when I am doing and have done nothing of the sort. With regards to spending much more time and effort in attempting to show the crime is not as bad as claimed, again, I have done nothing of the sort; I made an initial perfectly innocent comment with regards to Murray’s behaviour being not exactly out of kilter with wider behaviour in the pre financial crisis world, and that he was not the only one who should be held to account. I did not deny that he should be held to account, and my first words on the subject were that I wasn’t defending Murray. The only reason I have spent so much time and effort on the subject is because you told me to, so I find it bizarre that you are now criticising me for doing so.

    I did not suggest that the actions you attributed to Murray were far fetched, I said it was far fetched to demand that another company had done absolutely everything Murray had. I stand by that.

    I was clear in my initial comments that I was speaking with regard to a wider context beyond just Scotland and Scottish football. I was very clear on this. If you think nothing of a wider context should be mentioned here then you’ll be harrassing a lot of posters for their comments. I notice for example that people commenting on a Guiness case earlier were spared your wrath. You asked for examples of public companies (you did not suggest they had to be related to Scottish Football) demonstrating examples of the same behaviour as Murray, and then shot me down when I provided examples because they didn’t relate to Scottish Football. I did exactly what you asked and provided reasonable examples which demonstrated my original perfectly simple and reasonable point that Murray was not doing anything so far out of the ordinary. I stand by that as well; the examples I provided prove that in the wider context in which I was commenting, others had done similar things to Murray. That is all I said originally, and I have not changed my viewpoint.

    Gretna, Hearts and Dunfermline were all damaged by the actions of individuals. If they are not big enough clubs for you to bother with or to satisfy the demands you made of me, there is nothing I can do about that.

    I am not making any arguments the same as Murray acolytes, as I have never once said “Don’t go after Dave” and in fact have been quite clear in every post I have made on the matter that I am not defending him and I believe he should be held to account for his actions. I have never wavered in my view of this or in my public comments on the matter.

    I have never made very loud public noises about anything on this blog. I must stress again that I strongly resent your repeated implication that I am following PR tactics or trying to hijack the mood of the blog. The only reason I have commented on this so much is because you have hounded me on the issue of what I consider to be a perfectly reasonable original comment.

    I will now consider the matter closed as I no longer believe you are actually reading my comments with any degree of fairness or spirit of friendship in which they have all been intended, but seem more intent on shouting me down on anything you’re not happy with. Which again, I find bizarre, as over the last two days I have actually disagreed with very few if any of the factual comments you have made.

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  49. Campbellsmoney

    Campbellsmoney


    Regarding the play offs for the Premiership.

    They are weighted in favour of the team finishing eleventh in the top league. At the time they were announced, that fact was noted on here and commented upon. Perhaps that weighting was the trade off for the teams likely to be affected, agreeing to vote in favour of play offs at all.

    The financial difference between finishing 12th and 13th in Scottish football has been much reduced so the prize money now available in the Championship is now much better than before.

    That is a good thing. The play offs are a good thing – perhaps this year – with so many teams involved will prove to be the exception rather than the rule – but the fight to avoid eleventh has been gripping and will have added much cash to many teams.

    My fear now is that a groundswell of support to rejig the play offs to make them fairer to the Championship teams will appear. While I would be in favour of that in principle, I would doubt the motivations of those who would propose it and who vote in favour.

    This distrust is the legacy of the previous conduct of those who run our game.

    View Comment
  50. Danish Pastry


    Campbellsmoney says:
    May 11, 2014 at 8:36 pm
    3 0 Rate This

    Regarding the play offs for the Premiership.

    They are weighted in favour of the team finishing eleventh in the top league. At the time they were announced, that fact was noted on here and commented upon. Perhaps that weighting was the trade off for the teams likely to be affected, agreeing to vote in favour of play offs at all …
    ———

    If it all goes totally off the rails at Ibrox in the coming months, and a severely weakened team appears in the Championship next season, there will probably be media clamour for an end to the “tired, repetitive, uncompetitive” top tier. If I was Mystic Bob for a night I’d predict 4 teams will be promoted from the Championship at the end of season 2014-15.

    View Comment
  51. Campbellsmoney

    Campbellsmoney


    Danish – do you want to predict their names? 😈

    View Comment
  52. Danish Pastry


    Campbellsmoney says:
    May 11, 2014 at 9:14 pm
    1 0 Rate This

    Danish – do you want to predict their names?
    ———–

    Depends on play-off outcomes, but the two certs are Hearts & TRFC.

    If Hibs go down I expect they’d finish in the top four, so then it’s the current known unknowns for the final place in the elevator: Falkirk/Hamilton/QoS/Dunfermline.

    Mystic Bob has spoken 🙂

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  53. johnnymanc


    Much of the discussion on here relates to a certain football team and what their position is in Scottish Football and therefore whether or not they are worthy of any special treatment from their fellow clubs, the authorities (football and in general) and our ‘chums’ in the media.
    Much of the angst surrounding said team is based on their alleged position as ‘a Scottish institution’, the ‘dominant force’, the ‘most successful club’ or simply ‘the people’.
    So let’s look at some simple facts, i.e. championships won in each decade.
    Now, as much of this blog and it’s forerunner RTC is based on the premise that the titles won in the 90s were the result of cheating as proven in the LNS case (10 out of 11 ‘guilty’ verdicts despite the joke conclusions i.e.The Bryson Ruling and No Sporting Advantage), I have removed them from the following table. It makes very interesting reading.
    Decade Titles won by Titles won by
    ‘Other’ Teams Rangers
    2000s 6 4
    1980s 7 3
    1970s 7 3
    1960s 7 3
    1950s 6 4
    It is worth noting that ‘others’ doesn’t just mean Celtic, clearly the New Firm were prominent in the 80s but many on here might not realise that in the early 60s Dundee and Kilmarnock won the league, in the 50s Hearts and Hibs each won 2 apiece.

    In the pre-war days there is no doubt that Rangers were the dominant force by a long way, 14 of 19 titles in the 20s and 30s.

    So basically what this whole mess is about is that some people want things to go back to the way they were before WWII! That sums up the ridiculousness of the shenanigans surrounding the Ibrox club, All their absurd overspending is to maintain an illusion that hasn’t been reality since The General Strike and the days when Chamberlain was bringing peace to Europe 🙄

    Sunderland and Sheffield Wednesday were among the dominant forces in the 20s and 30s in England! Times change, dominant organisations lose their power and everyone deals with it unless they are stuck in the past.

    View Comment
  54. Squiggle


    RyanGosling says:
    May 11, 2014 at 7:58 pm

    Mr RyanGosling. For a long time I haven’t been sure if i see a glimpse of something you don’t mean to show when you post. But that doesn’t matter right now. Murray is seen by an awful lot of people as a very bad man. Odious in extreme.Not a ‘maverick’ or anything half as wholesome. Plain and very simply, very bad. Maybe they are wrong but, maybe care is also required when trying to contextualise him and his actions without making due reference to the evil so many seem to experience when talking about him. The effort required in constructing such a version of the man might cause other defences to slip.

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  55. Campbellsmoney

    Campbellsmoney


    Danish thanks – maybe one of our bookie literate posters could get us odd on TRFC, Hearts and A.N.Other(s) all going up.

    I see Gary Locke and Danny Lennon are both facing uncertain futures.

    No doubt there are better managers out there. There are certainly worse ones. Gary Locke has latterly got his team achieving some decent results. In fact, but for the points penalty, they would be in the play off (on goal difference). No doubt things would have played out differently but nonetheless, Hearts results are virtually indistinguishable from those of 5 other teams.

    Danny Lennon seems to be one of those managers that the media just don’t fancy. Again his results are no worse than half the league. The style of football played is far more attractive than under his predecessor. A trophy has been won.

    Fact is St Mirren, Ross Co, Partick Th, St Johnstone, Inverness CT etc cannot all finish in the top six. Staying in the top division is an achievement for most of those teams. If there were 12 fantastic managers in the top division, one of them would still get relegated.

    Teams generally don’t get better just by changing their manager and certainly not by changing their managers frequently. Of course some changes work and make a qualitative difference to the team. Most changes probably turn out to be detrimental. No doubt we can think of examples either way (Messrs McInnes and Butcher spring to mind currently) .

    Anyway, careful what you wish for. Failure is the norm for everyone in football. Brazil lose 80 odd per cent of the World Cups they enter.

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  56. easyJambo


    Bill1903 says: May 11, 2014 at 4:47 pm
    ————————————–
    This one humoured me from last night (you may substitute any club and apologies for using Hibs)

    Father and 5 year old son having a chat.
    Q. Why did I have to support Hibs?
    A. It’s character building, now stop crying dad.

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  57. TSFM


    new post up

    View Comment
  58. essexbeancounter


    covethistlestolemypitch says:
    May 11, 2014 at 4:18 pm
    46 1 Rate This

    ecobhoy says:
    May 11, 2014 at 3:47 pm

    “generally Scots expect a higher moral standard than a lot of people”

    Hmm. Scots are just as moral or immoral as any other nationality. I’m surprised to see such talk on here.
    =================================================================
    If you were to read the ICAS “Ethical Guide” you may have second thoughts as to moral standards, higher, lower or whatever the case may be, expected in business affairs. I would be delighted to forward a copy to you.

    But then again, ICAS members have been complicit in this omnishambles since (-S)DM acquired control of RFC(IL).

    Please note that I said “acquired control” and not “purchased”, let alone with his own pocket money.

    View Comment
  59. essexbeancounter


    Barcabhoy says:
    May 11, 2014 at 6:08 pm
    68 7 Rate This

    He (Murray) has been the most toxic individual in business in Scotland in my experience. I guess we differ in that you seem content to consign his behaviour to the past, where i believe dealing with him severely is necessary as a deterrent to anyone else inclined to cause the type of mayhem that he has.
    ==============================================================
    Would Ryan G wish to “consign his (Murray’s) behaviour to the past if he were a member of the MIH Group Pension Fund facing a massive shortfall in its funding arrangements, knowing full well that the man, knighted for “services to business” in Scotland had effectively “done a runner” to France, having ensured his own financial security in advance?

    View Comment
  60. sannoffymesssoitizz


    ratethisthenyabampots says: May 11, 2014 at 1:18 am
    ‘.Whilst these playoffs are what we have all been crying out for, man alive they are flawed.’
    ——-
    John Clark says: May 11, 2014 at 1:55 am
    ” I agree. And I think, to be fair, most of us feel that there ought to be a more equitable, realistic and workable arrangement. …… In the Scottish footballing world, however, the very concept of sporting fairness let alone any practical expression of the sporting ideal, was abandoned a couple of seasons ago.
    One cannot now imagine that they will even understand your complaint, let alone act upon it.”

    John,

    The SPFL Board are aware of a fairer play-off format! 😕

    Here’s the play-off format details on the SPFL website – http://spfl.co.uk/play-offs/ 😳

    So for promotion from the lower divisions the team finishing second bottom of the higher division plays the team finishing 4th from top of the division below in one semi-final. Whilst 2nd play 3rd in the other semi-final.

    From yesterday’s results the team from the higher division all won their games, (eventually)

    Surprise, surprise there’s a different format for promotion to the SPFL Premiership. 😯

    It’s a shame that Big Pink did not ask (or edited out) Turnbull Hutton why the 30 clubs in the 3 lower divisions of the SPFL accepted this when the SPL took over the SFL.

    As we know there’s little chance of anyone in the SMSM getting Neil Doncaster to explain the sporting integrity of the current arrangements, and I doubt he’d be willing to acknowledge the unfairness of the current arrangements.

    View Comment
  61. oddjob

    oddjob


    John Clark stated his surprise that Zebra Finance were involved in the season ticket financing, as he noted the company was in administration.

    Indeed it was, but was “acquired” by a Leeds based company, TRENT Finance in November 2013. Zebra was in trouble due to it’s involvement in the provision of finance for the purchase of faulty breast implants.

    Guess what? The directors of both companies are the same!

    View Comment
  62. Martin


    Has anyone considered showing Sandy Easdale just how easy it is to set up a block function on undesirable emails?

    View Comment
  63. ptd1978


    I reckon Uruguay’s defence will make a big impact on this World Cup. They have the potential to score as many as they concede. Messi and co might have enough to see them off, but it’s 50-50ish so I’m going for Uruguay.

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  64. One day, Katie, you will wind up in an NHS A&E, and we will treat you as well as we can, without hesitation, as we do all bigots & haters. https://t.co/pwf1ni8Gvo

    So proud and pleased for my good pal @Cairney2 many congratulations Jim! https://t.co/EEBASaeVEU

    Dave King and The Takeover Panel – The Truth that dare not speak its name. https://t.co/znjDUL8xvl via @wordpressdotcom

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