Podcast Episode 1 – The Scottish Football Monitor

Podcast Episode 1

SFM PodcastOur First podcast features a general discussion involving our own Big Pink and Auldheid.
Since it is the first podcast there is no particular agenda save for a general chat about TSFM, the state of Scottish Football, and some few reminiscences. The chat covers a lot of ground, but establishes the ethos of the blog pretty well.

Topics discussed include FPP, Leadership, Interdependence, Scotland’s self-regard, Coaching and Nurturing of Talent, Redistribution of Income, Rangers, Forgiveness, domestic strife 🙂

The interview was conducted a couple of days before the latest round of Armageddon, when Big Pink and Auldheid felt safe and well 🙂

The link below is to the iTunes store page for our Podcasts.  If you go there, you can subscribe to the podcast (on your PC or iPhone) and new episodes will automatically be sent to you.

Since we have just been approved for a spot on iTunes, the iTunes search side of things may not work properly for a day or so.

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Trisidium

Trisidium

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

1,849 Comments
  1. Adeste Fideles

    Adeste Fideles


    Link not working for me. You can copy the .mp3 URL from the error page it throws up and download from there or listen in your browser by cut’n pasting that URL.

    I am using Chrome if that helps.

    http://www.podcastgarden.com/episode/tsfm-episode-1_10867

    Link to Podcast page.

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  2. HirsutePursuit


    Link not working; but get it here:
    http://www.podcastgarden.com/login/audio-4/4127/TSFM001.mp3

    View Comment
  3. GeronimosCadillac


    Good stuff. Looking forward to more Auldheid revelations as touched upon in the podcast. Also good to hear that there can be reconciliation with Rangers fans but not really the SFA!

    One small suggestion – if you want to get away from the idea that this is not a Celtic blog don’t start with a Podcast that has two guys going on about being Celtic supporters.

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  4. gunnerb


    A great debut podcast featuring the venerable Auldheid and BP. I was disappointed with what seemed an ill timed edit regarding BP’s question on how to encourage greater participation on the monitor by Rangers fans (43.30) it suddenly wanders off to referees impartiality. Auldheid had already made the point regarding the acceptance of truth prior to reconciliation and perhaps ,for the moderators ,this is the uncomfortable reason for a lack of contribution from our fellow fans.

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  5. StevieBC

    StevieBC


    Very good first podcast: clear, good volume and nice conversational style from BP & Auldheid.

    Sounded rather professional – send the link to SSB and Sportsound! 😉

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  6. Danish Pastry


    I’ll confess, I fell asleep. But it is really late. 🙂

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  7. TSFM


    GeronimosCadillac says:
    February 10, 2014 at 1:19 am (Edit)

    Good stuff. Looking forward to more Auldheid revelations as touched upon in the podcast. Also good to hear that there can be reconciliation with Rangers fans but not really the SFA!

    One small suggestion – if you want to get away from the idea that this is not a Celtic blog don’t start with a Podcast that has two guys going on about being Celtic supporters.

    ___________________________________________________________

    But we told them not to lie 🙂

    Seriously though, we were conscious that it was two Celtic supporters. I think it was better that they came clean about that from the off. More than anxious that we get a mix in future.

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  8. TSFM


    gunnerb says:
    February 10, 2014 at 1:37 am (Edit)

     

    A great debut podcast featuring the venerable Auldheid and BP. I was disappointed with what seemed an ill timed edit regarding BP’s question on how to encourage greater participation on the monitor by Rangers fans (43.30) it suddenly wanders off to referees impartiality. Auldheid had already made the point regarding the acceptance of truth prior to reconciliation and perhaps ,for the moderators ,this is the uncomfortable reason for a lack of contribution from our fellow fans.

    ___________________________________________________________

    It actually was a poor edit at that point gunnerb. I was quite impressed with the edit (cost enough!) in general, but that was one bit that could have been better. We got some advice about production techniques to make the task of editing easier and seamless, and we will carry that on in the next Podcast.

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  9. Humble Pie


    Congratulations TSFM et al on finally getting the first podcast up. I certainly enjoyed the wide ranging conversation on the current state of Scottish football from Auldheid and Big Pink (neither of whom sounded the way I imagined them!). Despite both being self-confessed Celtic supporters, I found the tone of the discussion conciliatory and unpartisan and focussed on ways of improving the governance of the game for the benefit of all supporters. It certainly makes a change from the usual peurile and inflammatory garbage we are subjected to from the likes of Radios Scotland and Clyde. I hope it gets as many listeners and commenters as it deserves and I look forward to more of the same.

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  10. sannoffymesssoitizzhizzemdyfonedrapolis


    Welcome back Castofthousands & Hirsute Pusuit

    Posting here as I can no longer post comment on our previous thread.

    Thanks for the links to both versions of the 5 Way Agreement which highlight some of the changes made to appease the Sevco Spivs that have left the SFA, SPL and Scottish football shamefully corrupted and bereft of any semblance of moral or sporting integrity.

    I’m now looking forward to listening to the Podcast now that I’ve selected the correct link ❗ 😳

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  11. sannoffymesssoitizzhizzemdyfonedrapolis


    Enjoying the tone ane content of our 1st podcast (Well done Auldheid, Big Pink and the technicians)

    It really is astonishing that Stewart Regan considers that the role and responsibilities of the SFA is not that of a governing body.

    Perhaps he should read the following from the SFA’s own website as part of a remedial learing package as part of his employer’s Continuing Professional Development Program!!!!!

    NB My Bold text (hopefully!)

    Scottish FA
    The Scottish FA exists to promote, foster and develop the game at all levels in this country.

    Founded in 1873, Scottish football’s governing body has recently undergone the most radical changes in its history, enabling us to lead the game into a new era. The launch of our strategic plan Scotland United: A 2020 Vision outlines the vision, values and goals that underpin the organisation and its many facets.

    The plan encompasses four strategic pillars:

    • Perform and Win
    • Strong Quality Growth
    • Better financial returns
    • Respected and Trusted to Lead

    The Scottish FA is committed, with the support of its partners and sponsors, to promote the game at grassroots level by providing players, coaches and volunteers with access to football regardless of ability, sex, race or gender.

    We have also invested £15m in a four-year Performance project which will accommodate the most talented young players in seven Regional Performance Schools around the country. Here, they will be coached by the Scottish FA around the educational curriculum, with the focus on the 10,000-hour elite performance benchmark.

    The Scottish FA is also responsible for operating the world-famous Scottish Cup and is proud of its distinction as the oldest cup prize in world football.

    Equally, the Scottish FA is responsible for the fortunes of al our national teams: from the Senior Men’s and Women’s A Squad, to the under-21s and National Youth Teams from Under-15 Victory Shield to Under-19.

    The Scottish FA’s coaching course is revered the world over and has been used and endorsed by such illustrious coaching names as Sir Alex Ferguson, Jose Mourinho, Kenny Dalglish, Marcello Lippi, Andre Villas-Boas and Walter Smith.

    Governance is a primary responsibility and the appointment of a Compliance Officer and a move towards an independent Judicial Panel has enhanced the efficiency and transparency of the disciplinary process. Club Licensing, player and coach registrations, Referee Development and Coach Education are also key components of the Scottish FA’s wide commitment to the national sport.

    If you search for “SFA” on Wikipedia you get a range of results including:-

    Organisations
    “Scottish Football Association, governing body of association football in Scotland

    How best can we endeavour to get this across to the SFA Board and its Officers?

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  12. Danish Pastry


    Humble Pie on February 10, 2014 at 1:51 am

    …. Despite both being self-confessed Celtic supporters, I found the tone of the discussion conciliatory and unpartisan and focussed on ways of improving the governance of the game for the benefit of all supporters …
    ———–

    Got it all second time and agree with Humble Pie’s thoughts above. Well said Auld & Pink.

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  13. valentinesclown

    valentinesclown


    Really enjoyed the podcast, well done. Thank you Auldheid and Pink

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  14. Danish Pastry


    The early bird gets re-tweets from Exiled Celt! King being snubbed according to the back page of The Sun.

    https://twitter.com/scottishsun/status/432691459259518978

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  15. Brenda


    Well done 😛 measured, rational and honest, extremely refreshing 😉

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  16. torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958)


    Phil back with update

    https://twitter.com/pmacgiollabhain/status/432805334948659201

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  17. chancer67


    @ecobhoy

    It seems the Land Bear expert has got his valuation of Westhorn wrong and has said as much in a reply to my post on his blog.

    When I pointed out to him that a blast zone is recently new in terms of planning applications and not as he erroneously thought a remnant of industrialization and that Westhorn shares a boundary with a bonded warehouse he must have research the PADHI regulations.

    He has now revised his value of Westhorn down by 50%.Notwithstanding the discount Celtic’s legal team would have undoubtedly negotiated because of the impairment caused by the brickworks, claypit and reservoirs on the site.

    He still insists that Celtic got the land for a third of the it’s true value.

    This news will come as a massive blow to the bears who are relying on The EC finding Celtic guilty of state aid.

    It also highlights the fundamental flaws in their case that if a casual observer can see through their flimsy evidence what will a hard nosed legal expert do to it.

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  18. sannoffymesssoitizzhizzemdyfonedrapolis


    PMG’s latest blog post referred to in aboven tweet

    http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/the-problems-caused-by-accuracy/#more-4377

    Good questions posed to Ibrox PR Department to which I’d add

    How do the board plan to reduce the ongoing monthly excess of expediture over income and when will this plan be actioned?

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  19. jean7brodie

    jean7brodie


    Excellent podcast. Very balanced and informative. Well done BP and Auldheid.

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  20. Gym Trainer


    For anyone trying with the links:

    Link 1: Is an RSS feed – for those of you out there with a podcast app – if you subscribe to that link it should download any future episodes automatically. If you subscribe to it in a modern browser you’ll get a “live bookmark” which contains the podcasts which will automagically update when there are new episodes to listen to. Not sure but it may be possible to use this RSS feed in iTunes for those wedded to that.

    Links 2 & 3: These are direct links to the episode.

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  21. chancer67


    Not had a chance to listen yet,try tonight.

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  22. Bill1903

    Bill1903


    Will there be subtitles for us non Glaswegian speakers? 😆

    I jest

    I’ve listened to the first 20 minutes-very enjoyable so far

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  23. jean7brodie

    jean7brodie


    Thanks to John Clarke and Castof thousands for info on Five WayAgreement. I’l be back in 2 months when I finish reading it 😉

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  24. TSFM


    Gym Trainer

    iTunes have the podcast under review – that is to say that they know the rss feed exists and have it registered, however their staff need to clear the content first before they can include it in the ITunes store. Hopefully it will be only a couple of days.

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  25. Tartanwulver

    Tartanwulver


    I enjoyed the podcast, well done

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  26. Gym Trainer


    TSFM says:
    February 10, 2014 at 10:21 am

    iTunes have the podcast under review

    Good to hear, usually 1-14 days (nice wee range there, some poor Apple sop has to listen to it to make sure that you didn’t drop a sweary in a non-explicit podcast) – but see the background reading for that (record breaking) wifi installation paid off – I’m all technical here…

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  27. ernie


    Very good podcast. I look forward to more! As previously discussed, perhaps a journo?

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  28. davythelotion


    I admire Phil’s tenacity but I suspect that the sevco 5088 matter will be dealt with long before he receives an answer from the PR dept.
    DK claims that he has offered cash but has had no contact from anyone. How does that work? Does he ‘phone Ibrox and say ‘DK here, how much do you need to keep the lights on?’. Who does he offer to when he has no contact?
    GW reveals that he turned down an offer for Nicky Law for an unspecified amount from an unspecified club. Unusually, this never made the papers during the transfer window. At least Forest had the grace to allow the pretence of a +£1M offer being turned down.
    In any event either the club is flush or they’re skint. The easiest way to restore confidence in the brand – and attract investment – is to make a statement, not attacking or threatening anyone, but detailing the finances. As Chuck said throw open the books and see who’s in the vest financial position.

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  29. Greenock Jack


    Re. Why is there not more participation from Rangers supporters?

    Let’s not dance around the issue. The main reason that there aren’t many Rangers supporters who come on here or last very long is that the general tone of the blog is anti-Rangers. The constant digs, humour, disdain that are permitted help create this tone and at the same time anything similar going in a different direction is collectively frowned upon, often called a furry animal and usually deleted.

    The people who run the blog can do so the way they please but there is no great mystery to the question posed at the start of this post. One that any answer Auldheid or Big Pink may have had was left in the editing suite, a teething problem with the equipment but perhaps we could be given a brief outline of their answers.

    There is a reasonable argument for Rangers being the main topic of the blog but if the blog purports to represent Scottish football then it’s more difficult to justify the tone.

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  30. gamesabogey

    gamesabogey


    Great first podcast and so refreshing to hear an intelligent debate/conversation about our game – not sure I could stay on topic for a whole 50 mins. I hope we have the resources and contributors to make it a regular event.

    As to PMcG’s questions, the only one any business would choose to answer is “Are you up to date with VAT, NI, etc?” While we would all love to know the answers to the others, any company in the process of restructuring would have to look at all options of redundancy, cost cutting, financing etc and certainly couldn’t make them public until consulting with its own staff and informing the AIM. Nevertheless, all of the above must be under consideration.

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  31. EKBhoy


    Greenock Jack says:
    February 10, 2014 at 10:45 am
    2 2 i Rate This
    —————-

    Good morning, I think most folk in Scottish football are (still) waiting for the Apology to come from Ibrox in respect of the club / company’s behaviour, without that Rangers will always be subject to ridicule in one form or another ……

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  32. ecobhoy


    chancer67 says:
    February 10, 2014 at 9:46 am

    I have only become aware of the Podcast this morning and will sit down tonight and listen to it – PROMISE

    @Chancer – it has been obvious for a few days that the wheels are totally off the land wagon and the new direction is to allege corruption against a number of elected and appointed representatives and public servants for a wide variety of Scottish Organisations.

    Mixed in with these disgusting claims whose only common factor is that virtually all of those named have Irish-sounding names is the usual mish-mash of gibberish which displays either a total lack of knowledge about planning and land sales or a very cynical PR-inspired plot to harm Celtic and deflect the attention of The Bears from the financial sinkhole opening-up under Ibrox.

    I have noticed in the ‘expert’ camp a decided reluctance to actually date when the Blast Zone came into existance other than the laughable claim that it seems to pre-date the closure of the Westthorn dairy farm circa 1955 when it was sold to Long John. There’s also the crazy claim that the Blast Zone is centred on a former brickworks at the new Commonwealth Games Village. Brickworks that closed a century ago don’t constitute Blast Zones.

    The ‘experts’ also have decided to prove that there is no ground contamination on Westthorn that would justify any deduction from the land value. Land contamination has never been a significant factor at Celtic’s bit of Westthorn because its previous historical industrial use didn’t create the serious heavy-metal pollution that is common in the East End.

    The main factors influencing the price of Westthorn are simply the blast zone from the bonded spirits storage and the old mine workings and it’s interesting to note that the ‘experts’ continually avoid acknowledging the mining history on the site.

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  33. Araminta Moonbeam QC


    I note that Phil has raised the prospect of potential involvement of Bibby Financial Services, an ‘invoice financing’ company. A quick Google for their names should chill the blood of any financially literate Rangers fan. Ticketus all over again.

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  34. wottpi


    Just a wee thought.
    Looking at the team who are second in the SPFL premiership and knocked the league Leaders and Cup Holders out of the Scottish Cup their figures to June 2013 were as follows

    Turnover £7.85m
    Operating Charges £9.5m (of which £5.2m was the total wage bill).

    Still running at a loss and have a bit of historic bank debt and ‘related party loans’ but does it not show what is possible?

    Surely with no debt, two seasons of 40k ‘every second’ week and a £22m IPO injection the team from Govan can’t be hard up?

    However as discussed the operating costs for Sevceo has histroically been £14M Plus before wages. So with no cost cutting in site and not even taking account of wages how much of that £14m has already gone out the door this season. We know that the players wages are at least another £7m. There is no way thngs cannot be tight!

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  35. valentinesclown

    valentinesclown


    Even though my team got deservedly beaten by Aberdeen it was an exciting weekend of cup football and I am really looking forward to the quarter finals. Competition breeds more interest and bigger crowds. This is all good for our game and makes a mockery of the Armageddon scenario that was portrayed by our press and the SFA. Shame on them. My only concern now is the unbalanced reporting I am expecting from SMSM about Govan team’s chances of lifting the cup. In fairness the money they put out on high wages should make them one of the favorites but it is in the hands of Ally (and cups seem to avoid him) we will see how it pans out.
    Talking about Govan team paying high wages is the UTT open to the general public?

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  36. neepheid

    neepheid


    Greenock Jack says:
    February 10, 2014 at 10:45 am

    There is a reasonable argument for Rangers being the main topic of the blog but if the blog purports to represent Scottish football then it’s more difficult to justify the tone.
    ==============================
    Given the events of the last 10 years, it is asking a lot of supporters of other clubs that they discuss Rangers in hushed tones of reverence and admiration. Many fans feel very angry that they have been paying to watch a rigged game since Sir David began his shennanigans. Whether or not you accept that the game was rigged, that is how many fans of other clubs feel. That is bound to be reflected in the tone of comments.

    I wonder what tone Rangers supporters really expect? Their current mantra seems to be “no one loves us, we don’t care”. I take that at face value.

    I was brought up in the bizarre belief that respect, whether given or received, is not automatic, it has to be earned. What have Rangers and their fans done to earn the respect of the rest of Scottish football? I’m struggling to come up with an answer, but I’m sure that you and others can help me out.

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  37. ForresDee


    Really enjoyed the podcast, thanks to all who contributed.

    Now why does the fun stuff with sevco always happen as I’m about to head offshore into poor wifi!

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  38. tilhotdogsbark


    I have listened to the podcast and thoroughly enjoyed it. Thanks guys.

    It does cover a broad spectrum of topics, but this reflects the range of issues Scottish football faces and hence those of interest to TSFM, and as a first blog this approach was ideal. Focusing on individual issues in future blogs will be the right way to go.

    I will have another listen to it but on first listening a few aspects jumped out at me:

    The discussion highlights the appalling state of the SFA. Its very purpose does not appear to be clear, it’s leadership- out of touch and conflicted, indeed the question of whether it should be is seen as a service provider, an administrative body, or some sort of footballing court is still open to debate. I would suggest that until this matter is clarified and universally accepted then things will only get worse. The SFA would be well advised to recognise this fundamental failure and address it as a matter of urgency. This would add some value to the game, rather than at present, dipping in and out of issues as they occur and having to explain themselves and adjust their stance as the circumstances dictate.

    It was accepted that there exists a common contempt of the SFA by Rangers fans and those of other clubs. This is a fair assessment but the reason for the contempt comes from vastly different perspectives and I fear that these opposing viewpoints will make it extremely difficult for TSFM to attract Rangers fans participation. Not that we should stop trying.

    The matter of distrust throughout the game was well covered and this has intensified following the Sevco debacle. Indeed it would seem that there is nowhere within the game where a healthy trust and respect is apparent. I find this depressing and our clubs have to recognise this and attempt to have it restored by coming clean with their respective fan base as a first step.

    The coverage (and the enjoyable anecdotes recognised by many on here I guess) given to how participation in our sport by youngsters has diminished highlights another reason of why we are where we are, and how this is turned around is another quandary, which I suppose brings us back to the role of the SFA.

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  39. TSFM


    Jack,

    First of all, let me say that you have a point about the anti-Rangers tone of some contributors.
    The mods are trying very hard to set a better tone, and have vigorously set about removing posts which are not in keeping with our ethos.

    However.

    You can’t on the one hand say that it’s ok for people to abuse players and managers at game on the basis that it is banter (which I think is fair comment) but still rush to be offended when TRFC are treated with something less than reverence here.

    It is also a nonsense to say that alternative viewpoints are deleted or categorised as squirrel fodder. People who hold alternative views (including yourself) are robustly defended by the mods . What gets deleted are the juvenile wind-ups, the trolling, and the fortnightly appearance of Enkafid/Old Gold.

    With the humility that some Rangers fans (and excellent contributors) come here with, and the welcome they receive, your argument is blown out of the water. There are a few who do get it.

    I think your post suggests that although you do try hard to engage here, you are not trying at all to be part of the solution. As long as TRFC fans have that attitude then I suppose it will be an uphill struggle to have them as part of this community.

    Right now, Rangers fans are looking in, Stella Dallas like, at a fairly stable coalition of people who like football. Is it not time that they asked themselves why that coalition exists in the first place, and why they can’t be part of it?

    Before they can, there has to be (as Auldheid says in the podcast) some recognition that things have gone wrong. Nobody needs to be humiliated, just show some humility. Then we can move on.

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  40. wottpi


    Greenock Jack says:
    February 10, 2014 at 10:45 am
    Re. Why is there not more participation from Rangers supporters?

    Quite simply, as per the ecobhoy’s Bears Land Expert, very few Rangers fans come on here and have a rational and logical debate about the issues, problems and difficulties facing their club.

    I have engaged with many in the past and have tried to get them to explain why they think people on here are wrong and what are the solutions to the issues at Ibrox and what is realistic in terms trying to get back to the top.

    Invariably I get no answer that makes any sense.

    The stock answers are that they will be OK because they have 40k per game or that just because they are Rangers people are going to throw money at them.

    There seems to be no recognition that running a club the size of Rangers costs a heck of a lot of money and if you wish to replicate the past level of success that costs even more buckets of money that is apparently no longer available to them.

    There doesn’t seem to be a recognition that despite being a ‘Scottish Institution’ no-one has had the will or wherewithal to offer a ‘Rangers’ solution. The last hope for that is Dave King bumping his gums from the other side of the planet. Rangers money men have run for the hills and the spivs gained control. The folk in charge now may not be as Spivvy but the likes of Laxey have no interest in runninig a football club.

    I have said the whole thing is balanced on a tightrope but in that I mean in relation to immediate survival, I certainly seen no return to immediate domestic success let alone any kind of run in europe.

    Therefore as the lone voice of a Rangers fan I ask you the same as others before you.
    How do you see the club getting out of the mess it is in?
    How long will it take and what financials do you base that on?
    And if they do survive when do you think they will be back to a level they were in say 2010-11 when they last won the SPL?

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  41. Madbhoy24941


    Greenock Jack says:

    February 10, 2014 at 10:45 am

    Re. Why is there not more participation from Rangers supporters?

    Let’s not dance around the issue. The main reason that there aren’t many Rangers supporters who come on here or last very long is that the general tone of the blog is anti-Rangers. The constant digs, humour, disdain that are permitted help create this tone and at the same time anything similar going in a different direction is collectively frowned upon…..

    ——————————————————

    Agreed GF, if I were a fan of The Ibrox Club then I would feel the same. For that reason, I would also stay clear. We could do a lot more to make Rangers fans more welcome.

    Question is this, are you asking everyone to treat Rangers fans the same as fans from any other Club?

    To me, that would be a major compromise without seeing anything coming in the opposite direction. It was touched upon in the podcast, what do Rangers need to do to rid themselves from the stigma that is currently attached to them like a tumour, something has to be cut out but all we see is that tumour growing by the week and other more potent tumours appearing.

    It is also difficult to take you serious on the point of humour and digs when all you have done over the last 48-72 hours is act snide and arrogant, people in glass houses and all that…..

    Like Adam and some others, you sometimes make very good and relevant points that cause me to reflect but you go and ruin it by exposing your own deeply held prejudices.

    My view!

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  42. Greenock Jack


    EKB & Neep
    I addressed the question raised on the pod, that was centered on this blog and why there isn’t more participation from Rangers fans.

    Getting a perfect balance may be unrealistic but then accept the blog for what it is.

    MB
    I sometimes look to balance things up or make a small dent and will invoke humour or make what I consider a reasonable dig where the opportunity presents.

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  43. ecobhoy


    Greenock Jack says:
    February 10, 2014 at 10:45 am
    Re. Why is there not more participation from Rangers supporters?
    ====================================================
    I hope I am not perceived to be a Rangers ‘Hater’ in the sense that I wish to see the club destroyed. I have never had any problem in making it clear that generally for commercial reasons I have no problem with Rangers in Scottish Football as long as a level playing field is involved and the ‘baggage’ is ditched. And IMO that has to be applied to some Celtic supporters and even those of some other teams.

    However – that touches on the historical ‘problems’ we face in Scotland that sadly have their roots not in football, whereby the politicians try to hide the depth of the problem, but in our deeply damaged society riven to this day by sectarian issues many of which are imported from another country.

    But that’s not why I think there’s a dearth of Rangers supporters on this site IMO. It’s quite simply the case as I see it that the ‘thinking’ Bears can’t actually make a case against all the recent allegations and disasters which have befallen Rangers but which have their roots in the Murray lack of proper stewardship.

    And the lack of making the case isn’t through a lack of ability to do so – but quite simply because the ‘thinking’ Bears don’t accept the PR propaganda fed to and swallowed by more rabid supporters. So even if they haven’t ‘walked away’ physically from supporting the club they have done so on an intellectual and moral level.

    They know what’s destroying Ibrox from within and they don’t need to come here and apologise for a situation which is beyond them influencing and was from the moment Murray unloaded the club to Whyte. Whether they return will depend IMO on how long this shambles actually lasts and what state Rangers will be in at the end of it.

    The religious bigoterie which exists in Scottish Football is an affront to our society and decent people and anyone with any sense wouldn’t expose their family to it let alone waste their time and effort trying to turn the tide back.

    They have seen what happens to those on Bear sites who raise their head above the parapets only to have the mad dog pack loosed on them for exercising free choice and in having their own opinion. So it’s not just here that Bears have quietly departed but from their own sites as well.

    I base my opinions on what Thinking Bears are actually ‘thinking’ not on internet nutters but on the many Bears I know and socialise with including members of my family. Btw I don’t associate with bigots but just ordinary people and they offer little defence of what’s happened at Ibrox and almost universally they know and admit that a wonderful chance was lost to have a new beginning.

    That opportunity might come again and IMO if it isn’t seized by the Bears then gawd only knows what the future holds for them in the longer term. Supremacy at all costs and world domination comes expensive and is way beyond the pocket of any Scottish Football Team ❗

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  44. Matty Roth

    Matty Roth


    neepheid says:
    February 10, 2014 at 11:20 am
    3 0 Rate This

    Greenock Jack says:
    February 10, 2014 at 10:45 am

    There is a reasonable argument for Rangers being the main topic of the blog but if the blog purports to represent Scottish football then it’s more difficult to justify the tone.
    ==============================
    Given the events of the last 10 years, it is asking a lot of supporters of other clubs that they discuss Rangers in hushed tones of reverence and admiration. Many fans feel very angry that they have been paying to watch a rigged game since Sir David began his shennanigans. Whether or not you accept that the game was rigged, that is how many fans of other clubs feel. That is bound to be reflected in the tone of comments.

    I wonder what tone Rangers supporters really expect? Their current mantra seems to be “no one loves us, we don’t care”. I take that at face value.

    I was brought up in the bizarre belief that respect, whether given or received, is not automatic, it has to be earned. What have Rangers and their fans done to earn the respect of the rest of Scottish football? I’m struggling to come up with an answer, but I’m sure that you and others can help me out.

    ======================================================

    I am going to agree with both of you here and perhaps that presents the biggest barrier to getting more Gers fans on board.

    GJ is quite correct to say that Rangers fans can get a hard time on TSFM and other posters can be quick to ridicule. Its just human nature that most people faced with that will either go on the offensive and likely end up in the Mods bad books OR simply move off to find somewhere that they can get an easier time and more sympathetic discussion.

    Equally Neepheid points out that the lack of respect shown at time is in many ways with justification. Fans are angry and upset not at what happened 2 years ago – but at the continued denial of what happened and the agenda to cover up and obfuscate. This isn’t something individual Rangers fans have responsibility for but never the less they are the now the “victims” of allowing this to be perpetrated in their name.

    So both stances can hold true I think.

    Which leaves us where we started, how do we engage more Rangers fans in the discussion?

    View Comment
  45. TSFM


    Bill1903 says:
    February 10, 2014 at 10:13 am

    Will there be subtitles for us non Glaswegian speakers? 

    ________________________________________________

     

    Fit?  🙂

    View Comment
  46. Matty Roth

    Matty Roth


    PS – I haven’t listened to the podcast yet but am looking forward to it and fully expect to be so impressed I’ll be making a donation towards costs later tonight.

    View Comment
  47. jockybhoy


    Going to listen when I have the chance (no the biggest fan of podcasts but in this case I’ll make an exception), but I did want to pick up on a couple of ppoints from the previous thread…

    Something tells me that in May, Rangers will lift the SC at Parkhead… It would be another one of football’s delicious ironies.”
    – ah the classic feel-good story of the “have-nots” beating the “haves” – if it was only the plucky underdogs rather than the self-inflicted orphans… You know the gag – boy stands in the dock accused of murdering his parents but pleading leniency on the grounds he’s an orphan…

    Speaking of self-inflicted, there seems to have been butchery on a massive scale of GreenockJack’s posts – self deleted I assume, even those with favourable response from the board. Curious.

    The reason I was looking as the exchange relating to mainstream media versus blogs.
    I was going to side with him (or at least the position stance I think he was taking), hence my looking back to check on that stance… I was just going to highlight that “social vs mainstream media” debate is not “white hats versus black hats” – the mainstream might be chasing advertising & audience, but it does have established rules & laws governing its output.

    Social media does have some champions for justice or those looking to help communities connect, but it also highlights so many of society’s problems with the trivial, the venal, the racist, the jealous, the hateful given an often anonymous voice that means their prejudices can become “the norm” – this is my concern about “smart” (sic) search engines or self selecting news sources only reinforcing the views of the recipient. In my opinion we should expose ourselves to as many news sources as possible and draw our own conclusions not be fed a diet of only what we want to hear.

    Extreme example – if some anti-government redneck in some backwood in the USA is fed an exclusive diet of Fox news, gun ads and Chuck Norris movies, is he really able to form an objective view of a Democrat President who is pro-gun control and thinks consensus is the only way to move the country forward?

    If memory serves Lennon made a speech at the end of his last home game as a player – the Dons’ fans were singing “Lennon, Lennon Get Tae F…”, to which Lennon said “if the sheep-sh*ggers in the corner will keep quiet” to a great cheer from the visiting fans as well as the Celts. Great bit of footballing banter, taken in the spirit it was intended.

    View Comment
  48. AyeRightNaw


    GJ – I think that you are overlooking the point that the mainstream media are deservedly widely perceived as either pro your team or at least wilfully remiss in refusing to properly explore past and present events at Ibrox. This blog was established, at least in part, as a counterpoint to that bias and should be seen in that light.

    View Comment
  49. andygraham.66


    Today’s back page of the Sun is all the vast majority of the Rangers fans require to believe that everything is ok, comments of interest in getting involved from Dave King

    View Comment
  50. Bill1903

    Bill1903


    TSFM says:
    February 10, 2014 at 11:52 am
    0 0 Rate This

    Bill1903 says:

    February 10, 2014 at 10:13 am

    Will there be subtitles for us non Glaswegian speakers?

    ________________________________________________

    Fit?
    ————————

    Gaun yirsel by the way etc 😀

    I’d like to see you edit a blog by Angus and myself 😀

    I wonder if Stuart Cosgrove would be interested in contributing to a future podcast?

    View Comment
  51. Greenock Jack


    TSFM
    With the humility that some Rangers fans (and excellent contributors) come here with, your argument is blown out of the water. And there are a few who do get it.
    ————————————————————
    It is understandable you want to put forward a blog that represents Scottish football as a whole but that isn’t really the case, is it? It’d be like saying CW has wealth off the radar, many people would like to believe it but the numbers don’t back it up.

    If you’ve blown my argument “out of the water” then perhaps you’ll be kind enough to list some of the Rangers supporters who are regular contributors on the blog because I’m struggling to come up with them.

    This isn’t having a go at the blog, it has it’s merits.
    It’s about facing up to the answers of the question that came up in the pod (wasn’t answered) that asks about the lack of Rangers fans participation.

    View Comment
  52. valentinesclown

    valentinesclown


    wottpi says:

    Therefore as the lone voice of a Rangers fan I ask you the same as others before you.
    How do you see the club getting out of the mess it is in?
    How long will it take and what financials do you base that on?
    ———————————————————————————————————————-
    Do all Govan fans think Mr King is the financial solution?
    Is it not feasible for an institution to work it’s way back without a sugar daddy?
    Why is this not spoke about in their forums? The years of watching a team from Govan playing at the top level is now history and it is not your divine right to return there, it has got to be earned through financial austerity and sporting merit like all other teams in Scotland. If this was achieved by this method then you would make friends along the way and would be openly praised by all. It would take time and that may be something you cannot accept. If a sugar daddy comes in your attitude will IMO not change.
    We debate your situation on here as it is the biggest story in Scottish Football and within this story there are shades of grey or areas where clarity is not present. The SMSM do not help and worse than this the SFA have added total mistrust by treating you in such a blatant favorable way which NO other club would have been dealt with. If we ignore all this then then baw is truly burst.

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  53. Castofthousands


    ecobhoy says:
    February 10, 2014 at 11:38 am

    ” that touches on the historical ‘problems’ we face in Scotland that sadly have their roots not in football,”
    ————————–
    The religious divide has been recruited as a method to divide communities for the benefit of those who would see a united community as dangerous. I’m not entirely sure what the figures for church attendance are in Scotland but I suspect they will be pitifully low. Football supporters that harangue each other on the basis of their religion are by and large non-practising and haven’t been inside a church for decades save christenings, marriages and funerals. Religion is not the issue here; it is just an instrument that is used to divide the community.

    While we’re divided we can be played off against each other by the SMSM or other establishment influences. These differences also coincide with political fault lines that have run through the British Isles for a long time (I blame the Romans). When people stand away for the ingrained bitterness and educate themselves as to the roots of these divisions then it will be time to move forward. If we remain in our own little time capsules and refuse to acknowledge the right of existence of others then we diminish ourselves.

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  54. wildwood

    wildwood


    Greenock Jack says:

    February 10, 2014 at 10:45 am

    Re. Why is there not more participation from Rangers supporters?

    ==============================================

    The tone of this site is the tone of this site.

    As a fan of one of the diddy clubs I’ve never had any time for either half of what used to be The Old Firm. However the events of the last few years have thrown the vast majority of diddy club supporters together with the majority of the moderate Celtic support (and probably beyond) and we have discussed, analysed and interrogated this whole situation whereby the ‘thinking’ / ‘educated’ support of every ‘club’ outwith whatever incarnation of Rangers happens to be around at any given time. I can’t think of a time in my football following life where there has been such unity explored by the vast majority of scottish football – outwith one club.

    We’ve united behind the competitive advantage gained and exerted by Rangers over the years. We’ve united behind the abject failure of our administrators to address this and several other issues over the years.

    While discussing it we’ve found a common ground that had been lost for years, lost since probably my fathers generation, a common love of scottish football – That whole if you’re own team were away you’d go watch your neighbours / rivals. You had an interest in other teams and genuinely watched as they progressed through a cup competition or a league campaign. There has at least been a re-opening of a debate on better wealth distribution in the game and the benefits for us all – even the Champions / Champions elect. We’ve admired the club officials who have stood for integrity and made their voices heard and we’ve reached a consensus quite quickly on commentators who have voiced a strong opinion whilst failing to recognise even the most basic facts in this case.

    The Rangers support have stunned me in their approach to this. I can’t identify a single one who has accepted this situation as it quite plainly is – their supporters group cheerleaders and media mouthpieces to a man have failed to help do their club any good by leading a revolt against the practices that have ravaged their club (a few have got to about the 25% mark if I’m being generous). The SMSM have stunned me by their bias, their incompetence and their dereliction of duty.

    The Rangers players and officials have sickened me with their WATP drum beating. Including all those once thought of as alleged ‘balanced’ individuals in McCoist, Smith and unfortunately guys like Jardine too.

    This site has been a tremendous follow on from RTC and the quality of contribution has been balanced and outstanding in the main.

    It admit, it must be difficult for a Rangers fan to come on here and contribute given the subject matter, however I cant think of a single one who hasn’t eventually let him / herself down by reverting to petty whatabooterry and finger pointing. I also say it again – I have yet to encounter a Rangers fan with any humility or who argues that their club should show humility, address the issues head on, cut their cloth and repair whats their club and the chasm that THEY have caused in Scottish football.

    The biggest point – that remains lost on them all – is that the reasons for and the answers to all their woes lie within the discussion of this site.

    For some reason – not a single one has the decency or gumption to publicly state any of it.

    View Comment
  55. Sugar Daddy


    I too enjoyed the fireside chat of the first podcast. As two genial, balanced and sensible Celtic fans discuss the issues, I’m not sure if it has moved us much further forward in widening the reach of the blog.

    I’m going to bang on about a coherent message for the blog again and about bringing more Rangers fans to TSFM. Please skip on to the next post if this of no interest to you.

    On The TSFM masthead it states “asking the questions the media wont ask”. In marketing terms this is your strapline, your message, your reason for being and it is this that should guide your actions.

    Think of a big brand. I’ll use Red Bull. Their message? Red Bull gives you wings. They sponsor all manner of outdoor, thrill seeking events from F1, to air racing, mountain biking, snowboarding and the like. They have a consistent message and apply it across all media.

    This blog is seen, by Rangers fans at least, as being anti Rangers. If you want to reach them then I suggest that the way to reach them is by “asking the questions the media wont ask”. There are legitimate questions to asked of SFA governance, the league bodies’ rules, of refereeing standards that all affect Rangers equally.

    Auldheid’s comments that Rangers had “punished themselves enough”, was becoming more forgiving and that it was time to seek the truth and plan for avoiding such carnage being wrought upon the game again struck a chord with me.

    A reformation of the governing bodies is a pre-requisite for ensuring there is no repetition of the damage done to the game. Rangers are changing (I’ll leave it at that), the league body has changed but perhaps not enough, I think the fans have changed too and have a broader outlook. What does that leave?

    The SFA.

    There is hardly a fan in the country who thinks they are fit for purpose.

    There is the issue that can bring more Rangers fans to the site and by “asking the questions the media wont ask” we have the tools to engage them with.

    View Comment
  56. TSFM


    Some great football banter in the form of songs in the past. Not in keeping with the grown-up tone of TSFM, but I do remember the old “wings of a sparrow” song” which to a ten year old was exceptionally funny.

    The best of it goes as near the bone as possible – just stopping short of being unlawful 🙂

    Any clever – but clean – ones?

    View Comment
  57. paulsatim


    Araminta Moonbeam QC says:
    February 10, 2014 at 11:09 am

    ==========================
    Re, Bibby’s – the Bibby “scam” their M.O.
    http://t.co/ObXmulVRzA

    View Comment
  58. Zilch


    My first experiences of going to football matches were in the mid-late seventies with my Dad and my big brother. He was a few years older and had caught the end of the Jock Stein era. I realise now that I was being introduced to the game at a time when our team was in decline, but at the time it was apparently all my fault.

    Yup, everytime I got taken to a game we either lost or drew against one of the so-called smaller teams and it was all my fault. According to my big brother I was officially “A Jinx”.

    As a four year old I totally believed it and gret my eyes out thinking that I was to blame for all my heroes losing. How could I do that to Danny McGrain and Co?

    Fast forward to the weekend. I am generally an armchair fan, at best, but for some reason I really fancied going to the Celtic – Aberdeen match. A resurgent Dons team up against a Celtic team that is doing very well in the league – could be a cracker I thought.

    So at the last minute I get in touch with a friend that goes more regularly than me, we head out and catch the game. Trudging out at the end, he turns round to me and says – “You know, you really are a Jinx”.

    And for one heart-stopping, gut-wrenching moment I was that wee four year old boy thinking it was all my fault again. 😥

    So I would like to express my apologies to Neil Lennon and the Celtic players and fans – how could they know they were up against the supernatural forces of my Jinx-powers?

    PS. Congrats to the Dons – clearly the hungrier team on the day IMO.

    View Comment
  59. TSFM


    Greenock Jack says:

    February 10, 2014 at 12:06 pm (Edit)

    TSFM With the humility that some Rangers fans (and excellent contributors) come here with, your argument is blown out of the water. And there are a few who do get it.
    ————————————————————

    It is understandable you want to put forward a blog that represents Scottish football as a whole but that isn’t really the case, is it? It’d be like saying CW has wealth off the radar, many people would like to believe it but the numbers don’t back it up.

    ___________________________________________________

    Jack

    You really don’t get it do you?

    Nobody is pretending that this is a log that represents all of Scottish Football – but we are trying. Clearly you don’t believe that.

    If that is the case and the outlook is so negative here for Rangers fans, then one wonders what on earth you are doing on here in the first place. I’ll bet you after your behaviour yesterday and Saturday that there are a few who could guess. Maybe you don’t want a blog that does represent all fans.

    You clearly don’t want to be a part of the solution or there would be at least some recognition of the steps that we have taken.

    View Comment
  60. EKBhoy


    Greenock Jack says:
    February 10, 2014 at 11:37 am
    2 7 Rate This

    EKB & Neep
    I addressed the question raised on the pod, that was centered on this blog and why there isn’t more participation from Rangers fans.

    Getting a perfect balance may be unrealistic but then accept the blog for what it is.

    MB
    I sometimes look to balance things up or make a small dent and will invoke humour or make what I consider a reasonable dig where the opportunity presents.
    ——–
    GJ,

    Not got round to the pod thingy yet …… apology , trust and forgiveness can happen but looks very unlikely given the current incumbents at Ibrox and the brainwashing of the Rangers supporters by the SMSM.

    It seems to me that many folk may just have got round to forgiving Rangers for their 100 odd years of institutional bigotry to then get a double whammy of shady business practice revealed , sort of puts the onus on Rangers to come clean and apologise.

    We both know that will never happen, and from now until the end of time , Rangers name in Scotland will be forever held up to ridicule and amusement ………. learning to lose would be a good starting point for the Rangers club and supporters , remember it is not the losing that gets you , it is the hope of winning …..

    I would be delighted to be wrong.

    View Comment
  61. TSFM


    Bill1903 says:

    February 10, 2014 at 12:06 pm

    I wonder if Stuart Cosgrove would be interested in contributing to a future podcast?
    ____________________________________________________________________________

    He has agreed to do something. Timing will be important though.

    View Comment
  62. RyanGosling

    RyanGosling


    Afternoon all,

    Firstly, happy new year to all posters, its been a while. Having not posted here for some time, in light of this morning’s conversation I thought this would be an appropriate opportunity to comment.

    I have been in a self imposed exile for a while because to be frank, it stopped being enjoyable to engage in conversation. While I have continued to visit the blog as a valuable source of information on what goes on in Scottish Football in general and Rangers in particular, a lot of what I has read has put me off.

    I know that a lot of banter goes on between football fans, and that is widely accepted and desired. A lot of it is funny and builds relationships between fans of rival clubs. But I have to say that from my perspective at times this blog goes beyond that.

    I fully understand the anger a lot of people here feel towards certain actions of Rangers. In addition, I fully understand the anger a lot of people here feel towards some of the less than exemplary behaviour of Rangers fans at times. Indeed, I have expressed regret at both of the above on several occasions on this blog.

    However, I must say that 2014 so far, off the field for Rangers, has as we all know been a somewhat traumatic time. What has put me off in participating here during this period has been the general tone put across from some, by now means all, but a large proportion of posters. This tone I would best describe as glee, great pleasure in the plight of Rangers and posters taking a lot of pleasure at the difficulties being faced currently. Popcorn, jelly and ice cream, the gift that keeps on giving – I don’t need to keep listing because regular posters here and visitors will know exactly what I’m talking about.

    And that’s fine. If the majority of posters feel that way, then they are obviously perfectly entitled to express such sentiment. However to come back to the point being discussed this morning with regards to the lack of engagement from Rangers fans, may I humbly suggest that such sentiments do not make this blog a welcoming or enjoyable place to be for a Rangers supporter. And if said posters feel such joy at Rangers’ troubles, why is engagement from Rangers fans desired? So that insults can be shot off directly and fun had at their expense? Its an honest question and I look forward to any response.

    I do not consider many here to be Rangers haters. Not by a long shot. Analysis of Rangers financial mismanagement and discussion of the consequences does not constitute being a Rangers hater. A number of posters on this blog in fact I would say are going out of their way to help Rangers and their fans, a good example being a post from ecobhoy this morning.

    What I am getting at is this; ask yourselves as members of this community if you genuinely want to see a stronger presence from Rangers fans? And then ask yourself if you yourself would frequent a community where you are regularly described as rabid / klan / etc. etc.?

    Finally, I’d like to disagree with Greenock Jack earlier this morning and strongly defend the mods here, who in my experience have been thoroughly fair and in fact have gone to great lengths at times to defend and support any Rangers fans contributing.

    View Comment
  63. paulsatim


    TSFM says:
    February 10, 2014 at 12:30 pm
    =================================

    My fave, off top of my head, was Lubo Moravcik’s last Derby game at CP. Taken off towards end of match to allow adulation of Celtic fans, the visitors started up the chant, “Lubo’s a gypsy”. Within literally seconds, the Celtic fans came back with “I’d rather be a gypsy than a (you know what)”. Wasnt so much the sentiment but the speed of retaliation!

    That was a variation of the old (and very non-PC on both sides) Paul Wilson song. The Celtic fans thought that they were actually being pc!

    View Comment
  64. TSFM


    Ryan,

    The attitude of some posters is not the attitude of the mods here. You shouldn’t forget that posts like that are removed as quickly as possible. Most of this community would be delighted to see you posting more regularly. You will get a hard time, but as you know, the mods have in the past sought to ensure your right to a voice and to be heard in a spirit of respect.

    I’ve said it before, but let me repeat, I’d be happier if the readership figures were a third of what they are if it meant we could get rid of the people who bring the tone of the blog down. There is no anti-Rangers agenda here – absolutely none.

    Still, nice to hear from you again 🙂

    View Comment
  65. Auldheid


    Greenock Jack says:

    February 10, 2014 at 12:06 pm

    I listened back to the podcast to see what incredible words of wisdom 😉 were left on the cutting room floor at the point when I said ” I don’t know that it is (possible) to be honest ” to remember what I said and I think I then waffled because I honestly did not have an answer, so I can see why the discussion ended with a waffle on BPs floor.

    With time to think about it I still cannot say this is what the blog should do because it is not “the blog” that is speaking. It is individuals with their own life experiences that shape their current beliefs and attitudes and that “baggage” (which is a negative term because it is the negative stuff in our experiences that tend to determine our negative attitudes) is what each individual brings to the blog table.

    Thus for there to be any real communication the baggage has to be left at the door of the blog.

    When we post, we are not talking to Rangers supporters, or Celtic supporters or Arbroath supporters etc etc. We are talking to human beings, who have an intrinsic self worth and value that is wounded when the other cannot see beyond the label that the other has attached to our self.

    An example of this was I did a blog for Scottish Fans For Change which linked to two Celtic supporting web sites because I was drawing on SFA reform material published there 3 years ago when there was no TSFM to use. The two folk on the Rangers side of the debate who did respond on Twitter did not bother to look at the content or value of the content , but immediately disregarded it because of its source and attempted to discredit Scottish Fans for Change for using it. In a way, whilst not realising it, they were refusing to recognise my intrinsic value and worth as a human being, perfectly flawed as creation determined, as we all are.

    The normal reaction to that is to reciprocate in kind, but the response (which is what happens when the feelings of being devalued subside) is to know and own your own intrinsic value but recognise the blindness in others. This allows you restore your own sense of worth and not to let their misperception change who you are as a person. You know your worth, they are unaware of theirs, their current state of being..

    The problem lies with misperceptions, particularly on a blog where we lack the personal physical, visual and audio contact that can determine how we approach another in real life. Anonymity encourages incivility.

    However as I type it occurs to me (and it is as well it did not at the time the question was asked on the podcast or I would still be yapping) that I had been talking to a fellow Celtic supporter online on Wednesday after an Open Meeting of Celtic supporters about the same issue of overcoming labelling but in the context of the supports attitude to the Celtic Board.

    The word “dialogue ” had been used at the meeting a few times and it so happened that a number of years ago I had been a manager/moderator of an MSN Community forum for folk going through divorce. You get a lot of angry folk enduring that particular life experience, so I posted some rules on what dialogue was and what it requires of us based on a document I had read on the Internet about dialogue between religious groups. It is quite long and I have rabbited on enough so I have uploaded it here at

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B62m3ggkEX2RblNBOEtocGJObEU/edit?usp=sharing

    but I think these paras encapsulates it all and I commend it to all TSFM contributors.

    Dialogue

    Dialogue is a conversation on a common subject between two or more persons with differing views, the primary purpose of which is for each participant to learn from the other so that s/he can change and grow. This very definition of dialogue embodies the first commandment of dialogue.

    If we approach another party to either defeat them or to learn about them so as to deal more effectively with her or him, or at best to negotiate with him or her. If we face each other at all in confrontation–sometimes more openly polemically, sometimes more subtly so, but always with the ultimate goal of defeating the other, because we are convinced that we alone have the absolute truth, we are indulging in debate and not dialogue.

    But dialogue is not debate. In dialogue each party must listen to the other as openly and sympathetically as s/he can in an attempt to understand the other’s position as precisely and, as it were, as much from within, as possible. Such an attitude automatically includes the assumption that at any point we might find the other party’s position so persuasive that, if we would act with integrity, we would have to change, and change can be disturbing.

    All parties must be prepared to come to the dialogue as persons ready to put aside their own needs and wants, at least for a time. They must be ready to listen, without judgement, to the thoughts and feelings as expressed by the other person in the exchange. This is difficult to do on blogs/forums in the absence of body language and clarification often needs to be sought. The parties must be prepared to accept that reaching agreement may not be achieved, although that might occur, but dialogue will lead to both parties, through a better understanding of the others’ needs and wants, to being able to live amicably with their differences.

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  66. Not The Huddle Malcontent


    Are we sure Rangers/The Rangers fans even want to contribute?

    After watching the efforts of Jambos/Pars fans in saving their clubs recently and comparing it to the “efforts” of the bears, i’m not convinced they are all that bothered really.

    GJ, Ryan, why don’t you give us a list of all your bear friends who are desperate to contribute but are being scared away because they’ll hear some nasty truths delivered in blunt fashion about the behaviour of their club.

    is it a big list? is there even a list?

    Maybe you can point me to a few of their own blogs or posts on RFC/TRFC sites – i’d be interested to see the response they have from within the ranks of “their own”

    given the behaviour we’ve seen in the past few years, i’m struggling to see what positive contribution that they would bring.

    View Comment
  67. auchinstarry


    Ryan ,
    Good to see you back. Your points are relevant and understood. I grew up in a mixed community. Locally there was Rangers fans, Celtic fans, and funnily enough a Junior team whose name ended in Rangers. Everybody went there on Saturday afternoons. That could prove hilarious. As young boys we would gather round transistor radios listening to the Old Firm game. Some cheering when Celtic scored , others when Rangers scored, and all of us when Wee Rangers scored. Great banter. Completely free of maliciousness. After the game arrangements were made for a bounce game on the Sunday. There was no Cath0lics V Pr0testants stuff. The 2 best players picked the teams. Innocent enjoyable fun. Utopia.
    Where did this all go wrong. ? Or were the guys in my neighbourhood unique in this? I doubt it. As the pressures of success, commercialism, oneupmanship, finance and increasing Press manipulation, the general attitudes of people and football activists changed.
    Jock Stein became the first non-cath0lic manager of Celtic in 1965. This to me and other Celtic fans was not and never would be an issue. Yet 24 years later when Mo Johnston signed for Rangers it became National news for weeks on end. Attitudes HAD changed. That is the one major action by David Murray which should be applauded. Even if it was done to trump his great rivals. But my recollection is one of fans burning scarves and swearing never to return to Ibrox. How sad.
    Since then what I have witnessed has been Tit for tat verbal vandalism.” He said this so I said that.”
    Still prevalent today as recent dummies thrown out the pram will testify. How sad.
    This blog should not be about revenge or capitulation by anyone. Honest discussion by fair minded people would be our Utopia. Alas that is not always possible. What the vast majority on here would like is adherence to the rules. A football governing body in Scotland which is transparent, honest and driven by integrity without fear or favour to anyone. What’s the chances of that?

    View Comment
  68. Auldheid


    RyanGosling says:

    February 10, 2014 at 12:50 pm

    Hi Ryan. I was wondering where you had got to.

    I’m afraid whilst non Rangers supporters have to find it in themselves forgiveness for Rangers fans, they in turn have to find forgiveness in themselves of us when we trespass. (You cannot beat the wisdom handed through the ages)

    However a barrier to that readiness to forgive and move forward is the ongoing aversion to examining the truth as others see it, simply because of who is voicing it, and that is serving no one.

    Jelly and ice cream must be annoying but so too is being called a Rangers hater to prevent the truth coming out. So no one is free from trespass.

    There is a story about some famous New York playwright who buys an evening paper each evening on his way from work in the company of a friend. The newsvendor is always surly or downright insulting to the playwright but he always responds in a civil and courteous manner.

    The friend asks the playwright why he puts up with such behaviour and the playwright says

    * I know who I am and what I want to be and I will not allow him to dictate to me to be how he is”

    We are all in the same Scottish football boat together but we badly need a new captain at the helm not afraid to negotiate the icebergs and head for warmer waters.

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  69. Auldheid


    In the interests of truth seeking I did not waffle in answer to the question, apparently I went off at a tangent never to return.

    That must be true.

    Just as well really.

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  70. yikirta


    valentinesclown says:

    February 10, 2014 at 12:11 pm

    —————————————–

    Is it not feasible for an institution to work it’s way back without a sugar daddy?
    Why is this not spoke about in their forums? The years of watching a team from Govan playing at the top level is now history and it is not your divine right to return there, it has got to be earned through financial austerity and sporting merit like all other teams in Scotland. If this was achieved by this method then you would make friends along the way and would be openly praised by all.

    —————————————–

    PTFC last season won the First Division by 11 clear points with 32 players on an average weekly wage of £250.

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  71. Smugas


    Auchinstarry

    The 2 best players picked the teams. Innocent enjoyable fun. Utopia.

    Clearly you were never picked last!

    Seriously, thanks Ryan for taking the time. (On that subject, was Glen not going to try a guest edition – I was looking forward to that one). The whole jelly and ice cream thing does grate, yes, although I’m fairly sure the Celtic support did not solely invent the concept of gloating. From a diddy perspective though I can easily communicate the reason for my own ‘enjoyment’ of the club in blue’s present predicament.

    1/ “What predicament” ref MSM January 2012
    2/ the combination of whistle blowing, denial and the SFA being ‘unsighted’ more times than Willie Collum – the end result of that incidentally being the level of trust everyone had in Sundays draw ‘technique.’
    3/ Most importantly, since the original club’s demise with all the self inflicted factors therein, there has been a defiance in the sevco response since that time. Response 1 from the blog was that this was to be expected, but rationally, with several excellent anlaysis done to back it up came to the concensus that we’re struggling to see where the cash comes from to fund it. The current response back from sevco, a bit like TSFM’s request for banter from the stands seems to be best summed up as “Ah, but we don’t need cash to do what we’re doing.” I look forward to the return chant with interest.

    Just on the stands banter thing. Apologies its not song related but I always hold up the best example of what I would call classic football fans black humour and outlook in the following exchange.

    A while back as my club slipped towards yet another disastrous relegation campaign there are two guys sitting in front, 1-0 down at 89 minutes, the usual stuff, head in hands, chronic, inept display, in fact absolutely no reason for us all to be there at all. Seeing some activity down the front One says to the other “Jeez, I wish I wis in a wheelchair……….Then I’d be getting wheeled out noo as weel !

    Brilliant. Black, potentially offensive, depressing, but no less funny for that.

    EDIT: Can’t believe I missed the insult that is Campbell Ogilvie off that list!

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  72. secularfootballfan


    I’m mostly a lurker and only occasional poster here. This board however has the potential to be a fantastic open forum for all fans. I appreciate what the mods do, however there are many (often long standing) poster who still seem to view this site as belonging to the fans of one club. More self policing would be appreciated to leave it inclusive for those not of an Old Firm East persuasion.

    As an east coaster now living in the west, I was surprised at how vicious the atmosphere can get between some groups of rangers and Celtic fans. I can’t profess to understand as I don’t have any loathing of my ‘local rivals’ still over in the east. It is more akin to friendly banter.

    It would be best (in my opinion) if the banter can be kept to a similar level here. Cut the OTT red rag rangers hatred, cut the ‘we Celtic supporters’ comments as it isn’t helpful…

    Cheers.

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  73. Auldheid


    There were three issues that got lost in editing that I would like to add to the reform menu.

    Making SFA Membership dependent on getting a licence under a more stringent licensing regime.

    The podcast covered using UEFA FFP principles adjusted for domestic competition and policing them but one change that would limit the ability of clubs to act recklessly is to make membership of the SFA a non discretionary matter by making it conditional on licensing criteria being met.

    It is the SFA Licensing Committee who have the power to refuse or withhold a licence written into the rules but the SFA can simply ignore the detailed steps that would prevent clubs going belly up. That authority is overridden by the SFA who have total discretionary powers over Membership using whatever criteria they decide at the time that is convenient.

    My view is that the SFA’s powers of discretion have to take into account the licensing process and the SFA Board should not be able to act without a Licence report and should document why it is over ruled if that is their decision.

    Clubs should insist on this otherwise why bother having a licence regime at all when ignoring it carries no sanction.

    The role of the SFA as guarantors of a clubs sustainability and who Rangers supporters should depend on rather than assurances from individuals.

    This is a self evident requirement and would give the SFA a real governance purpose a reason for being, another service to football. This is not to decry individual integrity, but really did the folk Rangers supporters trusted when they asked if it was OK to buy SBs really know enough to give honest and professional advice? If I were a Rangers supporter I would be demanding the SFA not only give assurances but act as guarantors of that assurance. No more 5 way agreements that are not worth the paper written on because of lack of due diligence and no comeback if assurances are wrong.

    Finally

    SFA checking SPFL contracts to ensure sporting integrity not breached by commercial contracts eg 4 OF games a season.

    This would make the SFA Guardians of Sporting Integrity and along with the other two steps give them a real purpose as Guardians of the Game not partners in commercial crime.

    I was reading last night on Swiss Rambler that in Holland the Dutch FA (KNVB) tried to put its house in order in April 2010

    " The KNVB has belatedly tried to put its house in order and in April a working party published a report with 20 recommendations, the most important of which is a pledge by clubs that they have enough cash to reach the end of the season. For the first time, the KNVB has also implemented a licencing system that punishes financial irregularities with a points deduction. Furthermore, clubs under supervision like Feyenoord have three years to get their finances in order or face losing their licence."

    Apart from this showing that other FAs appreciate the importance of proper licensing why are the SFA not commissioning a similar report?

    That mystifies me more than anything and such an initiative would go a long way to moving on.

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  74. wottpi


    RyanGosling says:
    February 10, 2014 at 12:50 pm

    Ryan, nice to see you posting again.

    Totally get what you are saying but lets look at it the other way.
    RTC and now TSFM have included many posts predicting the manner at which things have panned out at Ibrox. As you say the information contained in such posts could have been taken on board by Rangers fans to help them make sense of what was happening to their club.
    The fact is that it is a seige mentality from within the club and from a large body of supporters, who also do a fine act of keeping their head in the sand.
    The ones who put their head above the parapet like the Sons of Struth were silenced. Not by anybody else in Scottish football but by their own club and despite all the bluster of minor demostrations at a few games it is back to business as usual.
    CEO Wallace is now the next great hope. He says categorically in December to all and sundry that the club is spending too much for the Premiership let alone Div One and here we are in mid February, and the only savings known to man is the end of Janauary salary cut for the manager circa £400,000 / 12 = £33,333.00. This is likely to be off set by the balance of the £200k they had to pay Stockbridge for hee haw and Nash’s consultancy fees.

    Similar to the questions I asked Greenock Jack earlier – How do Rangers fans actually see this all panning out?

    Surely when many fans have David Icke type delusions about CL success just being around the corner you can see why there is ridicule and much scoffing.

    If Rangers fans buckled down like those from Dunfermline and Hearts and started dealing with the reality of their situation then I am sure there would be a more tempered debate and indeed some sympathy for their predicament and, in many ways, the powerless situation they find themselves in.

    However just thinking and arguing it is all going to be ok because, ‘well we are Rangers’ is not helping people warm to them.

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  75. wottpi


    oldbhoy99 says:
    February 10, 2014 at 2:49 pm
    GoosyGoosy on February 10, 2014 at 2:22
    ———————————
    Indeed Goosy, many(most?) of us have friends and relatives of a blue persuasion.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    And that is the case with me. However unlike my friends and family who support other teams and are willing/ happy to discuss their clubs problems be that things like Hearts off field financial problems or a teams slump in form/poor manager, I fiind those of a blue persuasion seem to go out of their way to avoid a discussion about what is happening to their club.

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