Launch of SFSA Fans’ Survey

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LAUNCH OF THE FIRST INDEPENDENT EVALUATION OF SCOTTISH FOOTBALL GOVERNANCE BY THE SCOTTISH FOOTBALL SUPPORTERS ASSOCIATION (SFSA)

 

Representatives from various fan groups, including the Scottish Football Monitor took up the invitation to the above event which is largely self-explanatory. The scene was set with the following agenda

 

 

 

 

Media Briefing.

SURVEY TO SET BENCHMARK FOR FUTURE EVALUATION OF NATIONAL GAME

 WHEN:                             Thursday, 20TH July 2017 at 11AM

WHERE:                           Scottish Parliament – Committee Room 4

WHO                                Simon Barrow (Chair of the SFSA), Henry McLeish (Board member of the SFSA), Richard Leonard MSP (member of Scottish Parliament for Central Scotland and host of event) and Dr Joachim Lammert (The Department of Sports Economics and Sports Management at the University of Leipzig)

 

The first independent evaluation of Scottish football governance will be launched by The Scottish Football Supporters Association (SFSA).

 

The SFSA’s nationwide survey will assess, for the first time, supporters’ views on the current position of the game, including the performance of the game’s governing bodies in Scotland.  The research will become an annual benchmarking & reporting exercise looking at all aspects of the game.

 

The SFSA’s online survey has been created in partnership with Prof. Dr. Axel Faix and Dr. Joachim Lammert, two experienced German academics who have undertaken similar evaluations on a national level in Germany and on a European level on topics including 50+1 (German football’s rules that a parent club must own at least 50% plus one share of the football company) and Financial Fair Play.  Their research has been backed by Football Supporters Europe and by German fans organisation, Unsere Kurve.

 

Fans will also be able to provide comment on their own club’s performance.

 

The SFSA, whose board includes former First Minister Henry McLeish; former MP and MSP Cathy Jamieson and Maureen McGonigle, Founder of Scottish Women in Sport and first female Scottish FA Council Member, has over 67,000 members supporting clubs across Scotland.

 

The SFSA is Scotland’s fans’ representative in The Football Supporters Europe network (FSE), an independent, representative and democratically organised grass-roots network of football fans’ in Europe with members in currently 48 countries across the continent.

 

The SFSA might be best thought of as movement appearing at a time when Scottish Football supporters are desperately seeking an alternative to the attitudes and events that have seen our game at best stand still and at worst decline, as changes in the way football has grown as a global industry  have left us marooned on our own small patch of God’s earth.

 

If the two maxims that

  • a problem cannot be solved by the mind that created it and
  • if you cannot manage (and therefore improve) what you cannot measure

are true, then the SFSA professional idea to making change happen offers a different approach to the past by introducing new thinking and using tested scientific metrics on a survey model used successfully in Germany, where the game is light years ahead of Scotland’s by any measure.

The arrival of this movement is crucial, and in the words of SFSA Board member Henry McLeish, ex footballer and former First Minister of Scotland; “Scottish Football is at a Watershed”.

Few if any who love our game would argue with that. We love football because it is in our blood, it plays a key part in the social interplay of Scottish society and it is too important not to now say  “Enough!”

It is clear that the medicine of the past, an approach to the game which excludes it’s life blood, (no wonder it is ill) is no longer efficacious – if indeed it ever was.

To continue with that same prescription would fall foul of that other maxim; “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result”.

Thus the SFSA, who are independent of current Scottish football authorities (SFA/SFL), offer an opportunity to break that insane cycle by offering a new approach, which sees it’s first duty as asking the fans what they think, and they are seeking to do exactly that by enacting a comprehensive nationwide survey of fans’ views and attitudes. The survey, created by a team of research academics at Leipzig University will present, in a cohesive way, the views and thoughts of Scottish football fans concerning the health of the game in Scotland through their own own clubs, the SPFL, and the SFA .

The higher the number who complete the survey and articulating their views, the more weight and authority the survey’s outcomes will carry when the SFSA presents them to current authority and government.

 

SFM hopes that as many people as possible will take part in an exercise that offers real hope of change by clicking below

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/sfsa-benchmark-2017

and visit the SFSA page at

http://scottishfsa.org/have-your-say-now/

where the survey is explained and you can join the SFSA individually.

 

This may be our last chance as lovers of Scottish football to restore its integrity and trust in our football authorities who have lost sight of those values in pursuit of commercial concerns.

 

To the cynics whose past experience of calling for change discourages them (and who can blame them for it’s taken lifetimes) one last maxim.

 

If you don’t buy a ticket, you don’t win the lottery.

 

Roll Up, Roll Up https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/sfsa-benchmark-2017

Big Pink Comment:

Like Auldheid, I am encouraged by the birth of the SFSA and its determination to procure the views of supporters. There are enough people involved in the initiative with clear views about the harm that inherent self-interest on the part of the clubs has brought to our game.

I was less encouraged by the conciliatory tone of Henry McLeish, in public at least, towards those in power at Hampden. For example he said that Scottish football folk viewed outside bodies with suspicion, and that was often understandable.

My take is that they only view anyone wishing to become proactive with that suspicion (and fear). They have never viewed my cash with anything other than hungry eyes, far less suspicion.

The feeling in the room, when less formal discussion was taking place, was that the authorities and the clubs have refused to take fans’ views into account for too long.

Governance (particularly the lack of and the ‘making it up as we go’ varieties), FFP and Strict Liability were all subjects of those discussions. These are all nettles that MUST be grasped in public, and the sooner the better, if fans’ views are to be properly reflected.

I am hopeful that the weight of dissatisfaction I expect to see as a result of this ambitious survey will compel a change in tone by McLeish and his colleagues.

One final note of concern is that a group like SFSA, which after all hopes to represent fans at the top table, appears to have a board overly comprised of folk from the political, business and academic spheres. Some grass roots participation is vital moving forward. Hopefully that is also on the agenda.

629 COMMENTS

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  1. StevieBCAugust 2, 2017 at 19:21Might take a few years, but liquidation of some of the ‘top European clubs’, and smaller clubs – along with emptier stadiums – seems inevitable, IMO.
    Hope so.
    I remember someone telling me the games better, you have fitter players and sport science and tactics. the old football was shit.
    I remember been told CDs were the way forward digitital music, quality. Amazing vinyl is making its way back, hope this is an omen.

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  2. bigboab1916August 3, 2017 at 00:33
    ‘…..Amazing vinyl is making its way back, hope this is an omen.’
    ____________
    Serendipity or what!

    This very morning my windae cleaner ( fundamental Hearts man) told me that he had a huge collection of vinyl records, and was into the business of keeping tabs on ‘artistes’ who might die, because the vaue of the the particular recording’s sleeve seems to rocket! Not the actual record itself!

    This conversation led on to the question of storage in attics.

    And, very off topic, (but it’s been so bloody quiet tonight!) this leads me to ask: can I safely attach brackets to my roof rafters to hold bookshelves  on which might perhaps  two or three hunert weight of books  could be safely shelved, evenly spread over the rafters on each side?

    Is there a structural engineer out there?

    The wife’s going nuts at the prospect of the roof collapsing!
    ( No, that’s SMSM speak!&nbsp! Mrs C has simply asked me to ensure that putting the extra weight on the rafters will not cause them to bend, buckle and give way)

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  3. JC(e) @ 01:05
    @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

    the only advice I can offer is that vinyl most definitely sounds so much better. I would imagine that sensibly spread your vinyl collection may be hung from your diagonal joists. 

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  4. I used to have a top of the range stereo system which I bought from a shop across the road from Central Station.  Happy days.

    I have a few hundred vinilys up the loft alongside my old records System.  Cant manage up there no more! Probably covered in birds shit!

    Utube is my saviour.

    Celtic done well tonight although it was scary.  Hope Aberdeen do well tomorrow night.
    Gnight folks.

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  5. john,
    i’m no structural engineer but I’ve built a few roofs in the last 49 years. don’t load your rafters, they are designed to take the weight of the tiles/slates.On the floor of your loft you should be able to board over the joists where they sit over the wall below. If it is an old property the best place is where the joists cross each other, this is usually the load bearing wall.

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  6. John,
    As a rule of thumb, the roof trusses are only capable of holding the sarking and tiles. In modern kit houses, even the joists in the roof are barely capable of taking even the load of flimsy flooring. This subject to a safety factor of 1.4-1.6.

    Definitely don’t hang shelves on the trusses to take books or vinyl!

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  7. EasyJambo, any idea who is doing the building work at Tynecastle, who is supplying the steel etc.. ? (I know Daltons did the demolition.) Can’t find anything on line about it.

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  8. causaludendiAugust 3, 2017 at 03:32
    Big PinkAugust 3, 2017 at 10:39
    ________
    Gentlemen, I write this from my hospital bed1819………….
    No, only kidding. Thanks for the advice.
    To which I will listen.
    And add housebuilders to the list of cheapskate minimalist contributors to the sum total of human happiness, a list which of course is headed by Scottish Football governance people!

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  9. John Clark
    August 3, 2017 at 01:05
     
    Books 
    I had a similar quandary, 5222 books, so I “digitised” them.
    Now I use a nexus tablet to read them.
     
    Storage details above.

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  10. woodsteinAugust 3, 2017 at 13:55
    ‘…, 5222 books, so I “digitised” them.Now I use a nexus tablet to read them.’
    _________________
    Wow!
    Does that mean you scanned every page etc? And got shot of the physical books afterwards?
    Perhaps, not to bore other posters, you might PM me with details, some time at your leisure?

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  11. Helpumoot August 3, 2017 at 11:56 
    EasyJambo, any idea who is doing the building work at Tynecastle, who is supplying the steel etc.. ? (I know Daltons did the demolition.) Can’t find anything on line about it.
    ======================
    The main contractor is BSB Structural Ltd.  They have a load of photos of the development on their Facebook page.
    https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=bsb%20structural

    I think that there was a deliberate decision taken to favour local (and Hearts minded) companies when awarding contracts.

    The seating sections are made of some lightweight composite material sourced from South Korea and are due to arrive next week.

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  12. John ClarkAugust 3, 2017 at 14:07
    —————————————————

    Certainly will JC, meantime the “boss” is calling for a taxi. 10

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  13. jimboAugust 3, 2017 at 04:45 
    I used to have a top of the range stereo system which I bought from a shop across the road from Central Station.  Happy days.
     Would that have been Hutchisons, back door of the central or front door of central Hi-Fi corner and would that stereo have been a Denon.
    I had Denon from Hutchinson and Dual turntable from Hi-Fi corner, £50 for my stylus, who says CDs are better nothing beats a diamond and shine on you crazy diamond.Ha Ha

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  14. BIG PINK
    AUGUST 3, 2017 at 10:39

    As a rule of thumb, the roof trusses are only capable of holding the sarking and tiles. In modern kit houses, even the joists in the roof are barely capable of taking even the load of flimsy flooring. This subject to a safety factor of 1.4-1.6….
    =============================

    BP, that roofing info went right over ma heid !

    …I’ll get my hi vis jacket…  14

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  15. On the question of justifying a JR this conversation from CQN might be of interest

    Original Point from
    Dexter P. Bampot on 2nd August 2017 10:29 am

    Different Counsel can reach different conclusions depending on- what information has been provided to them; what they have been asked to consider, and there own interpretation of the law/ precedent.
    The opinion will remain privileged unless privilege is waived.
     
    We do not know what body(ies) is(are) the subject of a potential JR- whether it is a JR of the SFA/SPL or the LNS commission.
    However basic principles dictate that the findings of LNS could be quashed if, for example, same considered irrelevant or incorrect material or knowingly ignored relevant material. Similarly if the decision was one reached which no reasonable tribunal could have reached based on the evidence sane may be liable to JR.
    =====================
    Response from Auldheid 
     I think based on the SPFL response to a journo regarding the inclusion or exclusion of the wee tax case in the LNS Commission, that a matter considered irrelevant and so not properly examined was excluded. It was not just the lawfulness of the ebts that was left out but the omission of actual dishonesty, that was obvious from Rangers accepting, on QC advice , that RFC were liable to pay the tax owed under the DOS (wtc) scheme, the situation where they lied to HMRC about holding side letters for two players whilst at the same time (in Apr 2005 ) having 16 players on the books and  another 13 who had left, all with side letters at the time of enquiry.
     In the very act of passing the buck to the SPL to investigate the SFA avoided any charge under
    Article 5
    5. Obligations and Duties of Members
    5.1 All members shall:-
    (a) observe the principles of loyalty, integrity and sportsmanship in accordance with the rules of fair play
     (b) be subject to and shall comply with:-
    (i) these Articles;
    (ii) the Judicial Panel Protocol;
    (iii) the Challenge Cup Competition Rules;
    (iv) the Registration Procedures;
    (v) International Match Calendar;
    (vi) Club Licensing Procedures; and
    (vii) any statutes, regulations, directives, codes, decisions promulgated by the Board, the Professional Game Board, the Non-Professional Game Board, the Judicial Panel, a Committee or sub-committee, FIFA, UEFA or the Court of Arbitration for Sport; 
    (c) recognise and submit to the jurisdiction of the Court of Arbitration for Sport as specified in the relevant provisions of the FIFA Statutes and the UEFA Statutes;
     (d) respect the Laws of the Game;
     (e) refrain from engaging in any activity, practice or conduct which would constitute an offence under sections 1, 2 or 6 of the Bribery Act 2010; and
     (f) behave towards the Scottish FA and other members with the utmost good faith.
     Specifically a) and particularly f).
     It has always bemused me why the Judicial Panel charged CW of bringing the game into disrepute for a number of reasons including non payment of PAYE and VAT but not non payment and failure to meet his undertaking to pay the wtc bill. 
    Further in the JP charge sheet Art 5.1 a gets a mention amongst a list but 5.1.a)and f) do not appear in the actual charges themselves.
    What this means is that CW was found guilty by the JP but Rangers as a club and SFA member have never been charged with breaches of 5.1a and f.
    What the wtc shows is evidence of dishonesty, but it is but one example of which Res12 evidence is so full there is even a map of dishonesty which would suggest to a criminal court that there was
    ” previous” (as in behaviour.)
    It is because dishonesty is denied, in fact  LNS says there was no question of dishonesty, personal or corporate, regarding registration, in spite of it never been asked, that the attempts to put the matter to bed (which is what LNS appears to be an attempt at, have failed. The proper charge has been avoided but then again how could you allow any club with office bearers carrying that reputation into Scottish football, certainly without proper controls on it?
    Ooops they just did.
    ==================================
    Dexter
    The SFA or SPL would arguably be liable to JR if they deliberately stymied LNS or were procedurally incorrect in establishing LNS or acted wholly unreasonably.
     ========================
     Auldheid
     See my first comment. Although it was an SPL Commission that was no excuse to avoid SFA Articles. Indeed in recent interviews that has been the SPFL defence – as in that was not our job.
     =============================
    Dexter
    I should also add that the JR court would also look to whether any alternative remedy was open to the Applicant. I don’t know if UEFA or FIFA or CAS may have been approached.
     ========================
     Auldheid
    It was my view from the off that the SFA should have been the commissioners (it was their registration witness that swung things) and CAS the court of appeal.
     
    I don’t know why they pay thousands for lawyers – we just made the case fur nuthin!
      
    http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/a-judicial-review-of-the-lord-nimmo-smith-commission/comment-page-11/#comment-3097738

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  16. John Clark

    ” And add housebuilders to the list of cheapskate minimalist contributors .”
    I have coined a term for the maximalist of contributors whom I affectionaly think of as lads in deference to them no longer being so by age but not in spirit.

    The Lads of The Summer Whine. 06

    (If ye canny laff at yersel by oor ages, ye might as well be deid.)06

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  17.   bigboab1916August 3, 2017 at 14:23
    ..’I had Denon from Hutchinson and Dual turntable from Hi-Fi corner,
    ____________
    For some extraordinary reason, I hear in my head a voice crying ” Glens Hutchison Robertson and Stepek!” and am taken back to the early 1970s.
    I can’t remember whether that was an advert on STV, or just a radio advert on the old, original Radio Clyde ( of “were you at the game, caller” days) : a programme that made me often wonder whether Richard Park or Jimmy Sanderson had been at the same game as I had been!
    It was always a joy to read Ian Archer and John Rafferty as a kind of reality check.
    And what would those intrepid, careful, balanced sports writers have written about the disgraceful cheating of SDM, and the even more disgraceful repone of the Football ‘Establishment’ to that cheating?
    And who doubts what would have been their reaction if their respective  editors tried to  shut them up?
    What a pity guys like that were not around in the summer of 2012!

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  18. Bigboab 1916,

    Yes it was Denon amp, Denon tape recorder, Dual turntable, Mission speakers.  You daren’t play at full volume the neighbours would call the police!  Can’t remember the name of the HiFi shop, it was Hope St.

    Shame about the delay with the Tynecastle stand but it’s not the end of the world!  Read an article earlier saying that Hearts have put the league fixtures into turmoil.  No it hasn’t!  The only club disadvantaged (slightly) is Hearts!

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  19. Building/ civil engineering projects often go over budget and are late on completion.  I think back to the Ninewells hospital in the 70s, the Scottish parliament building, the Edinburgh trams system.  Seems to be par for the course.

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  20. jimboAugust 3, 2017 at 23:41
    ‘…an article earlier saying that Hearts have put the league fixtures into turmoil. No it hasn’t! The only club disadvantaged (slightly) is Hearts’
    ___________
    From the outside, I would give the Hearts board the credit for anticipating a possible delay ( they are Edinburgh folk after all, and they know what a f.c. up Edinburgh City Council made in respect of the ‘trams’)

    They would have to have checked long ago with Murrayfield; and with the other clubs about where their ‘home’ games were to be played in the (certain!) event that Tyncastlewouldn’t be ready.

    And of course there is absolutely no way the ‘Football Authorities’ could have dared refuse anything, so heavily compromised as honest ‘governance’ as they have made themselves.

    And if Ms Budge has managed to get either the SPFL or the SFA ,or both, to cover the payments to the SRU, I wouldn’t be surprised: after all, another, now dead ,club had been deceitfully put in the way of a few million quid without a blush by our deceitful Football Governance folk.

    [ footnote:(and nothing at all to do with my post)] I love the Dorothy Parker quote, which came into my mind while writing this post:
    If all the girls attending [the Yale prom] were laid end to end, I wouldn’t be at all surprised.” )

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  21. whiteseatbhoyAugust 3, 2017 at 08:12
    ‘…don’t load your rafters, they are designed to take the weight of the tiles/slates.On the floor of your loft you should be able to board over the joists where they sit over the wall below.’
    ___________
    Sorry, wsb,for what I’ve just noticed:not including you in my post thanking folk for their advice on the shelving matter.
    My books have for years lain quite safely on my own ‘flooring’ in the attic ( e.g old wardrobe doors and ex-library shelves and such like laid over what my late and very dear brother-in-law ( a brickie by trade) called ‘the jeests’).
    They are again lying safely ( and not at all damaged by damp, or cold, or vermin or bugs) on that flooring.
    And Mrs C is sleeping soundly even as I write.19

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  22. Another one in the mould of old school reporters was Alan Heron, he once spoke at a charity golf outing at Alloa’s Shawpark and told how he was commentating on a Scotland v Russia game when his fellow commentator a certain Bob Crampsay asked him who the Russian Nr 4 was to which he replied F*cked if a know, Crampsay carried on with his in depth description and duly informed the listeners that Fuctavano has just booted the ball into touch for a Scotland throw, oh aye and I missed a 2 ft put on the 18th which cost me a 2 week all in golfing holiday for two in the Algarve, loosing it with the same score as the guy that won it but with a worse inward 9, nice brolly though for second place.

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  23. Talking of journalists, below is an article from 2013 by Graham Speirs on the subject of new club/old club.

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/13110164.Spiers_on_Sport__Rangers__new_club_or_old__and_the_BBC/

    The acrimonious debate continues about whether Rangers FC is a new club or not.
     
    BBC Scotland is just the latest to feel the hot wrath of some angry Rangers fans railing at its editorial stance.

    In fact, those Rangers fans have scored a notable victory in having a complaint to the Editorial Standards Committee about BBC Scotland upheld

    At least two supporters objected to the BBC in Glasgow occasionally referring to Rangers in terms of “old club” and “new club”, and their complaint was upheld.

    What was thrown out was the daft accusation, frequently cited among some Rangers cyber zealots, that the BBC was biased against the club.

    My point here is not to defend BBC Scotland. In this complex Rangers saga, it has become obvious to me, speaking to various insolvency practitioners, that “new club” or “same club” Rangers is a highly subjective issue. I’ve heard the entire gamut of interpretations on it.

    Where Rangers struggle to be angry or insulted by the suggestion that their organisation is a “new club” is in this context: at least four Rangers principals, men who have been lauded by supporters, have expressed just such a view of Rangers as a new club.

    First, Charles Green. Prior to Rangers’ descent into liquidation last year, Green was aghast at the attitude of Dave King, a long-standing Rangers director, who had urged that a CVA be voted down by the club’s 276 creditors.

    Incredulous at this, Green went on television and said: “What he [King] is suggesting is that, rather than get a CVA through that retains all the history and tradition, that instead we should vote against it and go down the newco route. I mean…why would a true Rangers fan suggest that?”

    In this, the view of Green, the man to whom many Rangers fans swooned, appears none too different to that of BBC Scotland and others.

    Arguably, no Rangers figure in this debate finds himself in a more excruciating position than James Traynor, the club’s Director of Communication.

    Time and space here doesn’t allow for the sheer number of times that Traynor, in his previous role as a journalist, emphatically pronounced Rangers to be a new club once liquidation became a reality. Yet he has the temerity now to argue the complete opposite.

    Of the numerous times Traynor weighed in on this subject, just two quotes here will have to suffice.

    With liquidation looming, Traynor wrote in the Daily Record: “Some Rangers fans believe the club’s history, which would end with liquidation, must be protected. But any newco should make it clear that a new beginning means exactly that: a new club open to all from the very beginning.”

    Later on, with the Rangers CVA being rejected, Traynor wrote: “Rangers FC as we know them are dead.” Caustically, he added: “No matter how Charles Green attempts to dress it up, a newco equals a new club. When the CVA was thrown out, Rangers as we know them died.”

    Reading this type of stuff, I would urge Rangers to exercise supreme caution in railing against anyone who dares to call their club a new club; none other than their own Director of Communication has made his view perfectly clear on the subject.

    Many a Rangers fan expressed the view that the club died with the descent into liquidation. Typical of this was Ibrox debenture holder Stewart Boal who, having stumbled out of the CVA meeting of June 2012, was quoted by Richard Wilson in The Herald as saying: “We’re in shock. The club is gone. We’ve got to start again and move on.”

    Wilson, a fine reporter, himself wrote of that nine-minute creditors’ meeting where the CVA was rejected: “In those few minutes 140 years of history had been rubbed out.”

    I could go on and on here. Richard Gough, one of Rangers’ greatest ever captains, wrote in a newspaper column: “The club I gave blood, sweat and tears for is dead.”

    Walter Smith, one of the greatest figures in Rangers’ history, and now the club’s chairman, said of Green’s consortium taking over: “I wish the new Rangers Football Club every good fortune.”

    This is a painful subject. Many Rangers fans are agonised at the thought of their club being new – they simply rule it out. “It’s the company, not the club,” became the mantra. Other Rangers observers – like me – find it hard to escape the view that the current club is a new club.

    Rangers FC itself should think twice about laying into BBC Scotland or anyone else over this old club/new club debate. The more so when its own oral history on the subject is so weak.

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  24. Does anyone else remember the game at Ibrox in 2012, before the CVA was rejected, when 50,000 fans held up red cards which carried the message “No To Liquidation”?

    Now, just why would they be so upset about the prospect of a meaningless, expendable company going into liquidation?

    Unless of course……………..

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  25. HighlanderAugust 4, 2017 at 07:40

    The thing is, Highlander, that not one of those luminaries quoted has ever attempted to explain what it was that caused them to change their mind on the subject. All anyone who supports the myth ever says, is, ‘so and so says they are the same club…!’

    Anyway, here’s a wee thought. Why was it that neither Doncaster, nor any member of the SPL, pointed out, prior to the failure of the Rangers CVA, that, according to it’s own rules, a liquidated club carries on regardless? Could it be that that ‘get out your coffin free clause’ was only ever going to be used to the benefit of one club, and if Rangers hadn’t died, no one would have ever thought to introduce it as a lifeline for a corpse?

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  26. Allyjambo:  you make an excellent point, and the reason that, I quote,
    “… neither Doncaster, nor any member of the SPL, pointed out, prior to the failure of the Rangers CVA, that, according to it’s own rules, a liquidated club carries on regardless?”
    is, of course, that it is not the case. What the question highlights is how ridiculous the whole scam is, not really in terms of any SPFL rules (they can do what they want, they are merely a group of companies) but primarily because the reality of liquidation, i.e. one ceases to exist, is the whole bloody point and is intended to be a drastic, non reversible last resort for businesses in distress.

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  27. It’s a funny old game playing in Europe.  Celtic will travel about 4,000 miles to central Asia to play Astana.  Mind you I saw it coming years ago when Israel was allowed to enter the Eurovision song contest.  I think I read recently that Australia is now in that competition!

    The world is shrinking right enough.

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  28. ERNIEAUGUST 4, 2017 at 13:02

    ‘…the reality of liquidation, i.e. one ceases to exist, is the whole bloody point and is intended to be a drastic, non reversible last resort for businesses in distress.’
    ____________

    And it is there, Ernie, that we see the what makes the concept of limited companies, and the insolvency laws surrounding it, acceptable to society. It is also what made it possible for lenders (banks) to lend to football companies (clubs) to a level not backed by their commercial prospects or heritable assets.

    Even Bank of Scotland wouldn’t have lent the millions it did to Rangers if it was possible for the club to be seperated from the company in the event of insolvency. The biggest factor in lending way past the value of it’s security and/or commercial prospects to Rangers Football Club plc, was the words ‘football club’. For the bank knew, that under the law, it could have no recourse to shareholders, regardless of how wealthy they were, other than the (unspoken) threat that it would mean the death of the club. They would undoubtedly have believed that the directors would automatically dig deep (as has so often been the case) to keep the club alive, or someone else would. There is no way on earth that any football club would ever have received the level of bank support they all have, if there was ever the remotest possibility that a club could continue past liquidation! It is a nonsensical fantasy, and that is why the argument continues, for there can be no evidence of this continuation, and it is impossible to get people who believe in fantasies to accept the truth, especially when their belief is supported by those who fear the consequences of that truth.

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  29. Unintended consequences and all that…

    If crowdfunding is initiated for a JR, then the expectation is that fans from many / most [?] senior clubs would contribute.  Who knows, even some TRFC supporters might contribute, but for different reasons ?

    And this coming together for a common cause could generate more goodwill amongst the fans of all clubs…but it could also further entrench the division between TRFC fans and everyone else.

    The SFA, SPFL, and the clubs want us all just ‘to move on’ for the good of the game.

    Yet their continued inaction has forced this proposed JR as possibly the last resort before a fans’ boycott.

    When will the penny drop amongst the Hampden blazers that ‘moving on’ requires input from themselves?
    They can’t simply instruct the fans to forget everything that has happened in recent years.

    Alternatively, frustrated fans could choose to help themselves to ‘move on’ by supporting a JR.

    And regardless of what does or doesn’t happen: TRFC will always be a negative influence on the Scottish game, IMO, and there’s b*gger all we can do about that, [self-inflicted liquidation aside]. 

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  30. Allyjambo
    August 4, 2017 at 12:17
    7 Votes
    HighlanderAugust 4, 2017 at 07:40
    The thing is, Highlander, that not one of those luminaries quoted has ever attempted to explain what it was that caused them to change their mind on the subject.
    ————————————————————————————————
    Well here is one of these luminaries making himself look even more foolish by trying to explain his revisionism (grovel) to Ally McCoist.

    For the faint hearted start at 23 minutes to 26 minutes.1111

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  31. Quote from the TRFC MD, Stewart Robertson.

    “…
    ”Rangers is a modern, balanced and fair football club. It is crucial all fans appreciate they are representing an institution that has been in existence for 145 years and it is their duty to enhance and protect its reputation…”
    https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/follow-with-pride-6/
    ==========================================

    Think Pedro must have slipped him some altar wine into the MD’s coffee… 15

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  32. WOODSTEINAUGUST 4, 2017 at 15:35       5 Votes 
    AllyjamboAugust 4, 2017 at 12:177 VotesHighlanderAugust 4, 2017 at 07:40The thing is, Highlander, that not one of those luminaries quoted has ever attempted to explain what it was that caused them to change their mind on the subject.————————————————————————————————Well here is one of these luminaries making himself look even more foolish by trying to explain his revisionism (grovel) to Ally McCoist.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmFtPE2_9V4For the faint hearted start at 23 minutes to 26 minutes
    ——————
    Ally was not the only one trying to explain his revisionism

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  33. Ps sorry for double post.Never seen blog had clicked to new page…Pt 2 of pic.
    (mods can delete one of the part 1 pictures
    if i remember correctly not long after he became an ambassador for the new club

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  34. CLUSTER ONEAUGUST 4, 2017 at 19:28

    ****
    That’s all right then. Thanks to Richard for clearing up that slight misunderstanding.
    It was obviously an easy mistake to make, as witness Traynor, Ally, Walter et al. all voicing the same misconception.
    To tell the truth, I was a bit confused myself for a while!

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  35. STEVIEBC

    AUGUST 4, 2017 at 16:06        

    Quote from the TRFC MD, Stewart Robertson…
    —————————————————–

    There was a similar announcement by Robertson before the home tie with Progres. Perhaps fan behaviour is one of his KPIs this season?

    Either someone within Ibrox has realised that the sectarian element is holding them back in some way (from outside investment, perhaps?) or Police Scotland (I doubt it would be the SFA/SPFL) has told them that it simply isn’t acceptable anymore.

    I’m sure there will be an announcement before next week’s Hibs game kicks off. I don’t think it’ll stop the inappropriate songbook though. 

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  36. Just hit the £1k mark on our fund drive folks. Appreciate all the help and assistance. Well on target with a couple of weeks to go.

    Thanks again to everyone

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  37. THOMTHETHIMAUGUST 4, 2017 at 19:33
    To tell the truth, I was a bit confused myself for a while!
    ———————
    confused? you will be.Tune in next week….
    I may have gone a bit JC there and now have that saying going round and round my head. Believe it was from a tv programe back in the 70s or 80s

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  38. As asked previously, was there any formal rebuttal from SFA/SPL/SPFL at the time Charlie and Walter et al were proclaiming “new club” ? Sorry if someone has answered , but I can’t find any of the footballing bodies saying ” naw it’s no'”  at the time 

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  39. Cluster OneAugust 4, 2017 at 20:50
    ‘.. I will go down memory lane on youtube later’
    ________
    I’ve just most enjoyably been down that lane , prompted by the memory of the phrase ‘tune in tomorrow’  in the clever song by Cole Porter “Well did you evah?” in the film ‘High Society’
    “And have you heard the story of, A boy, a girl, unrequited love (Sounds like pure soap opera, tune in tomorrow) I May cry (What a swell party this is) ……”

    Have a dekko at Crosby and Sinatra on this link

     

    Looks like Crosby might have been aping the soap opera  that Jimbo refers to.

    Grace Kelly at her ice-maiden best in that 1956 film, which I didn’t see until about 1963/64 ( as a 20 year old, although I was word and timing perfect in that particular song [in my own heid!]

    And , in an attempt to kind of remain on topic, what a boon the internet is.

    Every sodding statement   that any  ‘person of public interest’  utters can be dug out and thrown in their faces when they change their tune!

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  40. When they state that the club and company are seperate show them this photograph and quote them
    3. The Rangers Football Club PLC a company incorporated under the laws of Scotland with company number SC004276 and having its registered office at ibrox stadium Glasgow G512XD(the company)and

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  41. From the Herald online, trying to get us all excited and ‘moving on’ as some ( not named) hack waxes lyrical about the start of the League season:
    “Anything is possible. Remember, this is Scottish fitba we are talking about.”
    Yep,and  in Scottish Football we are talking about how a new club is  allowed to claim the honours of a liquidated club, and of how  years of coldly calculated cheating by SDM are to be swept under the carpet, and of the complicity  in that cheating ( at the very least retrospectively)  of the men who are supposed to’govern’ Scottish  Football,  both  by their failure to deal with it, and by the dirty wee 5-way agreement they made with an asset stripper.
    All the burbling blather such as  “there would seem to be an inordinate amount of interest in this season’s Ladbrokes Premiership” cuts absoutely no ice when we KNOW that falsehood and cheating lie festering in the very heart and bowels of Scottish Football.
    There is a cuckoo in the nest, and the game’s a bogey, whatever the honest endeavour of the player on any pitch.
    Their masters were, and are, at it.

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  42. JC at 23.01pm.
    “And , in an attempt to kind of remain on topic, what a boon the internet is.”

    How true!

    I remember in the bad old days before social media, reading and listening to the bluster from David Murray.  We honestly believed this man had very deep pockets and business expertise.  “for every fiver Celtic spend we will spend a tenner”.  At Celtic v Rangers games at Parkhead their fans would wave £10 notes at us.

    One of the recurring themes of the Craig Whyte trial was the procession of ex Ibrox directors coming to the witness box and showing themselves and their colleagues up for the incompetent buffoons that they were.  They hadn’t a clue.  For all the club was in financial dire straights the only solution they had to everything was Spend, Spend, Spend.  David Murray eventually wanted out but found it difficult to find a buyer.  He tried to cover himself in glory by stating that he was waiting to find the right person to move the club forward!  So he got Craig Whyte in.

    Even now, although at a much lower level, they cannot bring themselves to live within their means.  They still want to give the impression that they are a big club who can afford to buy in about 9 players in a transfer window.  They should stop looking over their shoulders at Celtic and look inwards.  Celtic have a built in advantage in terms of revenue, get over it or it will end in tears.

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  43. I’m heading off to work shortly on what is the first day of the brand new league season.

    I’ve scunnered myself by re-reading the SPFL’s press release relating to the legal advice given by Gerry Moynihan QC following the Supreme Court’s final ruling on EBTs.

    The legal advice rules out several actions on the basis that they are not allowed for under the rules of the SPL/SPFL/SFA.

    It is now exactly five years since the start of the 2012/13 season, a season which began with Charles Green’s Rangers being permitted to play its first game only following the granting of a previously unheard of conditional membership of the SFA.

    Did our football authorities seek legal advice from an eminent QC into granting a license which was not covered by their rules, and if not, why not? Did the SPFL or SFA seek legal advice on each subsequent occasion they tore up their own rulebook to accommodate any form of Rangers in the past five seasons?

    Like the claims of double jeopardy applying outside a courtroom, the SPFL’S press release contains more mince than a butchers shop.

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  44. JOHN CLARKAUGUST 4, 2017 at 23:01
    Crosby and Sinatra…..Magic
    —————
    At the start of this new season. Anyone else not feeling it?
    One can only hope that  the rules of the SPFL/SFA.are all in place(don’t believe it matters anyway.discretion and all that)
    Won’t be attending as many games this season (will wait and see if  my club has a backbone)

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  45. Jimbo, you see this is when a Jabbaesque PR department is worth it’s salt.  That headline should have read “Hearts fury as SFA demands seats in new stand”.

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  46. Just back from the pub after watching the opening game of the season.  In the interests of the site I will say no more.  However, as the poster who exposed the drama of the delay in the opening of the new stand at Tynie, I think I should get 2 free tickets for the first game against Celtic.17171818

    Think it’s November or December. I will wear my wooly scarf.

    (I will not tie it around your goalposts!)

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  47. From TV i see that SPFL chief executive Neil Doncaster was not at the Unveiling of the flag today at celtic park.Is it mandatory for the chief executive to be present on the first day of a new SPFL campaign or is it by invite only from the club?
    If you are the chief executive of anything and want to promote your brand, I would expect you should be in the mix right at the start.
    Did i miss while making the tea?

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  48. Sorry Cluster One. Neil Doncaster is not one of my heroes but, to be fair he was at Celtic Park today. I was a guest at the Boardroom there this afternoon and he was there, large as life. He did not help to raise the Champion’s Flag and I don’t think that he would have been welcomed to do so.

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  49. Neil Doncaster on his visit to Celtic Park today to witness the opening game of the SPFL:
    I just came to say “Hello”

    (Neil you won’t be missed!)

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  50. “I still follow Rangers. When you leave, you’re not a player anymore, but you become a supporter.” To emphasise it, he says that the administration and liquidation of Rangers in those fateful days five years ago “killed Scottish football”. Not many outside of Ibrox would agree, but Mols doesn’t care much about that.

    “How many leagues have Celtic won now?” Six-in-a-row. “But four without Rangers. The challenge was always Rangers and Celtic. It wasn’t a challenge for four years, so you think it’s an achievement winning six-in-a-row or not? For me, Celtic winning the four years Rangers weren’t there, I don’t think it’s an achievement. No.

    It’s not an opinion he expects many outside Rangers to share.

    He’s 750 miles away in Amsterdam, but there’s no escaping certain things. The EBT chat? He’s heard it – his was worth £260,000 – and here’s his take on it. “I just wanted to play for Rangers, I would have played for petrol money. I didn’t tell them that. They say, ‘You can help the club by doing it this way’. I said, ‘OK, as long as I don’t get into trouble’. They put it on a letter and at the end of the day the responsibility is with the club. My agent agreed and also the guy who was doing the tax, because I don’t have a clue about that. I assumed they had the knowledge about it. I agreed with it. I said, ‘No problem, as long as I don’t get into trouble.’

    “I think he (Sir David Murray) knew what he was doing. It’s hard to put the club in that situation. I wouldn’t do that. It affected so many people who are following Rangers and you see the result. Four leagues down. It affected the whole of Scottish football. Yeah I would blame him or his advisors.”

    The title-stripping furore? That’s carried on the wind from Glasgow to Amsterdam as well. “I don’t even know where my medals are. They can take away my medals or my titles but they can’t take away my memory. I won on the pitch. If Aberdeen did the same, EBTs, would they become champions? Or the guy from Dundee United (Stephen Thompson) who makes a lot of talking about that? Would they become champions? I don’t think so. They need to move on now. Think about their own situation. They (United) need to worry about getting back to the Premier League.”

    Michael Mols demonstrates that the average footballer isn’t the sharpest tool in the box. Using Mols’ unique and warped theory about Celtic’s lack of achievement “because Rangers weren’t there”, presumably Rangers lifting of the European Cup Winners Cup in 1972 wasn’t an achievement either, since Celtic weren’t there.

     http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40830521

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  51. PATMATTAUGUST 5, 2017 at 20:28   
    Sorry Cluster One. Neil Doncaster is not one of my heroes but, to be fair he was at Celtic Park today. I was a guest at the Boardroom there this afternoon and he was there, large as life. He did not help to raise the Champion’s Flag and I don’t think that he would have been welcomed to do so.

    ===========================

    If it was up me I would not allow Doncaster or Regan into Celtic Park unless it was an event where the club is contractually obliged. As far as I am concerned both those men think Rangers cheating on tax to the disadvantage of other clubs is okay.  I saw Regan on Twitter congratulating Celtic on beating Rosenberg. Hollow and meaningless words. If they genuinely want football to move on then they must recognise it is not possible with them in charge. 

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  52. HIGHLANDERAUGUST 6, 2017 at 12:56
    I don’t even know where my medals are.
    They put it on a letter and at the end of the day the responsibility is with the club.
    —————
    I bet he can remember where his letter from the club is though

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