Is it time for the Sin Bin? – The Scottish Football Monitor

Is it time for the Sin Bin?

A guest blog by former Celtic & Scotland defender, Jim Craig

 

What time is this to come back?”

Dolores McCann (her Mother had been a great fan of foreign films) stood in that classic pose of the wounded woman – up to her full height and chin forward – as she glared at her husband who had just come in the front door. Before he could say a word, she gave him another volley;

 “you left the house at half-past-two for a three o’clock kick-off, it only takes you 20 minutes to get to the ground, a match lasts only one-and-a-half hours plus ten minutes for the break and you’ve just walked back in the door at half-past-seven! So where the hell were you?”.

Wayne McCann (his father liked Westerns) tried to calm her down.

“Dolores, you don’t know what it’s like at football matches nowadays ; it has changed out of all recognition; a match goes on for much longer”.

“In what way?” Dolores asked.

“Well, for a start, the players and even the managers can complain about any decision that is given against them. If that happens, the referee then goes and has a word with firstly, the two assistant referees, then the fourth official and gets their comments before he reflects on the situation. If he is still in any doubt that he made the wrong decision then he can ask the guy upstairs sitting in front of a television screen what he thinks. And, of course, all through this, the managers and players of both teams can chip in with their comments. That all adds a fair bit of time to the match”.

“Aye…but turning up at half-past-seven is still a bit over the top…is it no’?”

“Well, no’ really……you see, nowadays you are not allowed to have a drawn game, so if the match is level at the full-time whistle, there is extra time, which takes a minimum of half-an-hour”.

“The time is still no’ matching up!”

“Aye, mibbe so, if that was the end of the match. But if the match is still level at the end of extra-time, then it goes to a penalty shoot-out. I told you…you are not allowed a drawn game”.

“ A penalty shoot-out disnae take long”.

“That might have been the case at one time but because so many keepers were being accused of moving before the ball was kicked, nowadays they are strapped in to a harness which anchors them in the middle of the goal. They can only move when the foot of the guy who is taking the penalty actually touches the ball. So, after each kick, the keeper has to be put back into the harness and it all starts again. And, of course, you get the complaints from the managers and players that the harness wasnae working properly or that the officials who put the harness on didnae put it on right. That all adds up to the time factor”.

“Did you go to the pub?”

“As God is my judge, Dolores, after the match finished, I came straight here”.

“Who won anyway?”

“That’s a difficult question… there was so much noise and kerfuffle both on the pitch and in the stands, nobody was quite sure what the final score was. And the guy who usually does the announcing had gone home. Somebody said that he had a date. Anyway, if you let me turn on the radio, I’ll hear the score there. And Dolores?”

“Yes”

Wayne walked over to the drinks cabinet and took out a couple of glasses. “I don’t suppose you would fancy a wee drink”


We will leave the smooth-talking Wayne to his attempts to mollify Dolores and reflect on the situation. What you have just read is probably the ultimate scenario for those who wish to tamper with the current rules of football. Do I think that the game needs radical changes like that? No but I do think that some change is necessary and in one specific circumstance.

Now, I was a professional footballer for 9 years and in all that time, I can put my hand on my heart and state with complete conviction that I never pulled any other player’s jersey. Did I try to half him in two with a tackle, yes! But no jersey-pulling. And, of course, I was penalised for the challenge.

Today, though, I feel that there is a lot of body-checking and jersey-pulling going on in every match. Very often the referee lets it go and then you get the ridiculous scenario at a corner kick when all those waiting for the ball to come in are pulling and pushing, with the referee watching it and ignoring it. It is a foul, ref!

When the referee decides that an offence has been committed, then the player will be spoken to first. If he does it again, he will be given a yellow-card. The problem is, though, that the offence might possibly have affected the play in the match, whereas the yellow card does not affect the player’s participation.

If the player is daft enough to do it again, then of course he gets another yellow and will be off. Most, however, are sensible and keep the head, so they go unpunished as far as the current match is concerned. What we have to find is a punishment that affects the match in which the transgression occurred. Which means that we have to consider the sin bin.

This works very well in rugby and gives the referee a means to punish an offence a little more harshly – yet more efficiently – than a yellow card but without having to go for the ultimate, drastic – and for many unpalatable  – option of the red card. I hope it comes in soon.

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2,363 Comments
  1. Homunculus

    Homunculus


    ulyanova
    March 13, 2018 at 12:10
    ================================

    I suppose taking a job with them, then proclaiming that they weren’t as dead as he first said was a bit like bargaining.

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  2. wottpi


    I note elsewhere that folks are questioning whether more needs to be done re a
    “plan/ campaign to counter all forms of unjustified negativity towards the Celtic family”.

    In the past I have seen similar calls from the faithful coming out of Ibrox re the ‘bad press’ T’Rangers get.

    Lest the rest of us forget, the two big clubs playing out of Glasgow are 1st and 2nd in the league. They have a cup semi final to look forward to along with (I know I know – conditional on licence approval ) most probably Euro qualification for next season.

    Nobody else has won a league title in years and the chances of cup silverware and euro football by others is few and far between.

    Why are folks so sensitive despite almost guaranteed success and a bank balance the envy of the rest of Scottish Football? Just do you talking on the park as per Sunday and ram that down folks throats when required.

    I appreciate the frustration but come on Bhoys! For being sensitive wee souls how do you think you would feel if you had to support one of the rest of us and put up with the shit we have to for little or no reward or success?

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  3. Helpumoot


    John Clark
    Please continue your ‘diatribes’ and ‘childish arguments’. Please continue to refuse to ‘move on’. Swat aside the attempts to discredit (obsessed) and besmirch (haters!) and divert (you know who you are.)
    I feared a Sevco win on Sunday would have seen the real issues being swamped under a wave of euphoria. This past year alone they have dispensed with two managers in the most shabby of ways. Tapped up their nearest rivals’ manager while walking away with 9 points from a treble header with that same club. They have got players on ‘tic’, loaned others. They’ve hawked their family jewellery. They are never out of court and consistently lie to their own fans and everyone else. That behaviour cannot be rewarded.
    Thank you for keeping our eyes on the ball.

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  4. jockybhoy


    WOTTPI, MARCH 13, 2018 at 13:25
    “the chances of cup silverware and euro football by others is few and far between” Really? In the past decade 14 different teams have contested Cup Finals, with 11 different teams winning silverware. I am intrigued to know which countries have a more diverse set of cup winners over the same period.

    Clearly Rangers liquidation and subsequent (Cont’d p.94) impacted things but whose fault was that?

    So rather than “guaranteed success”, I think that speaks volumes for Scottish teams being up for the challenge of the cup – clearly the league is a different kettle of fish, but those winners all had their day in the sun in the last 10 years.

    But don’t let the facts get in the way…

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  5. John Clark


    HelpumootMarch 13, 2018 at 13:42
    ‘…Please continue your ‘diatribes’ and ‘childish arguments’.’
    _______________
    It will not only be a duty to do so, but a pleasurably easy task, because the message cannot change: RFC 1872(as Rangers 2012plc) is sitting there in Liquidation,disgraced beyond measure. 

    TRFC Ltd is a new (well, nearly 6 years old now) disgracing itself by claiming to be 1 hunnert an’ forty-six  years old, and claiming a sporting history laden with triumphs not earned by it, but by a club as dead as Gretna and Third Lanark.

    No need for me to try to remember what I may have said previously, to make carefully sure I don’t contradict myself.

    That’s the beauty of Truth: tell it, and there’s no need to lie and then invent more lies and then have to resort  [as the Fat Controller does in his interview with the ‘Incapability Brown’  of Scottish Football gardening] to blusteringly uttering vague menacing threats and promises of retribution.

    ( I enjoyed watching that wee clip again) and thanks to Woodstein for posting the link.

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  6. StevieBC

    StevieBC


    Regardless of Sunday’s result, and semi result next month, the sensible decision would be for TRFC to keep Murty as manager.

    He is known, easily managed, won’t be demanding transfer money – and is still probably very grateful for the unexpected opportunity.

    For a cash strapped club, retaining Murty could also be an effective way to manage TRFC’s unrealistic expectations.

    …so I guess he will be replaced after the cup semi…

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  7. wottpi


    JOCKYBHOYMARCH 13, 2018 at 14:17

    From my looking of the last ten cup finals on Wiki

    The last ten Scottish Cup finals (14 different finalists) has 7 different winners with  single wins for Dundee Utd, Hearts, St Johnstone, ICT and Hibs  and multi wins for Celtic 3 and Rangers 2
    League Cup Finals (11 different finalists) has 6 different winners with single wins for Killie, St Mirren, Aberdeen & Ross County and multi wins for Celtic 4 and Rangers 2

    Yes a half decent spread across the other clubs but still a once in a blue moon event for fans of others outwith the two large Glasgow clubs.

    It can of course be argued it currentlyt looks like becoming a one in a blue moon event for the club from Ibrox as well.

    Compared with the the same period down in England.

    The FA cup has had 14 different finalists with 6 different winners, with Chelsea and Arsenal leading the way with 3 a piece. (Same a Celtic)
    The English League Cup has had 12 different finalists with 6 different winners, with Man Utd and Man City leading the way with 3 a piece. (One less than Celtic)

    Therefore not really much of a difference across the border other than Celtic have 7 pieces of cup silverware as opposed to the maximum of 4 pieces won by Chelsea, Man Utd and Man City.

    Add on Celtics 7 league wins compared to the most of 4 by Man Utd in the EPL and you see see why others in Scotland are perhaps dumbfounded by the implication that occasional negativity in the press may somehow be hampering Celtic’s efforts.

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  8. rob469


    WOTTPIMARCH 13, 2018 at 16:20

    It is not just about football.

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  9. easyJambo


    https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/neil-doncaster-replaces-ian-maxwell-on-scottish-fa-board/?rid=14258

    Neil Doncaster replaces Ian Maxwell on Scottish FA Board

    Tuesday 13 March 2018
    At today’s Professional Game Board meeting, it was confirmed that Ian Maxwell had stepped down with immediate effect from the Board of the Scottish FA. Neil Doncaster was elected unopposed by the Professional Game Board as his replacement.

    Alan McRae, Scottish FA President said: “I would like to thank Ian Maxwell for his valuable contributions to the work of our Board, in particular, the part played by him during the recruitment of our national team manager.

    “I am pleased to welcome Neil Doncaster onto our Board to replace Ian. Neil’s experience in the game should be of great benefit to the Scottish FA and I look forward to working with him and the other directors to drive the game in this country forward.”

    Neil Doncaster, said: “I am very grateful for the support of the Scottish FA Board and look forward to Scotland’s two main footballing bodies working together more closely than ever before for the good of the entire game.”

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  10. easyJambo


    Tomorrow’s CoS hearing seems to have been updated, or is in addition to the one I posted yesterday.

    Wednesday 14th March
    LORD MALCOLM
    STARRED MOTION
    45 mins  A295/16 David Whitehouse v Philip Gormley QPM &c – A & W M Urquhart – Ledingham Chalmers LLP

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  11. jean7brodie

    jean7brodie


    I think Neil D tells fibs!!

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  12. bigboab1916

    bigboab1916


    John ClarkMarch 13, 2018 at 16:13That’s the beauty of Truth: tell it, and there’s no need to lie and then invent more lies and then have to resort  [as the Fat Controller does in his interview with the ‘Incapability Brown’  of Scottish Football gardening] to blusteringly uttering vague menacing threats and promises of retribution.

    Bravo, DBD and others knows this also. I may not be a man of many words in constructive sentences, but i know when someone is using the craft speak to create an illusion and i know how to silence the point attempted.

    You see if Rangers was not broke then there was no need to fix it, and fix it they did, however the parts applied as the old proverb you stated was the planks used from the old did not recreate the same vessel.

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  13. Cluster One

    Cluster One


    JC i did laugh.what did it taste like. But i believe STEVIEBCMARCH 13, 2018 at 16:15
    Last line brought the biggest smile22

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  14. Cluster One

    Cluster One


    EASYJAMBOMARCH 13, 2018 at 16:58
    3
    0 Rate This
    https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/neil-doncaster-replaces-ian-maxwell-on-scottish-fa-board/?rid=14258
    Neil Doncaster replaces Ian Maxwell on Scottish FA Board
    Tuesday 13 March 2018At today’s Professional Game Board meeting, it was confirmed that Ian Maxwell had stepped down with immediate effect from the Board of the Scottish FA. Neil Doncaster was elected unopposed by the Professional Game Board as his replacement.
    —————
    For quickness,as i don’t have the time myself just now.Anyone remember what the Professional Game Board does.
    If i remember it has no authority on SFA matters as such. Any replies Thanks i will look in later.

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  15. Auldheid


    Cluster OneMarch 13, 2018 at 18:41

    Whilst ND might not have voting power on main Board he should be able to represent the needs of the larger SPFL clubs in discussions that end up going before the Board.

    On that check https://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/five-in-open-battle-for-central-defensive-places/comment-page-4/#comment-3206256 and preceding comments.

    A very interesting development.

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  16. John Clark


    easyJamboMarch 13, 2018 at 17:11′..Tomorrow’s CoS hearing seems to have been updated,..’__________________Yes: just showing who the judge will be, I think.

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  17. Cluster One

    Cluster One


    Thanks for reply AULDHEID

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  18. jimbo

    jimbo


    Imagine nearly 60 people going to the bother of giving this a thumbs down?  So So sad.
    Do you know what would make my perfect on line world?
    Folk like EJ, AJ, DBD, JC, Paddy, Jean, Bally, Chris, and a million others who love football and their clubs.  So too Auldheid who comes over on here as a neutral expert , but on other sites has a deep love of Celtic.  something to be proud of.  Not a hint of hatred..
    AJ especially, you remind me so much of my pal Andy – a Jambo through and through but not a bad fibre in his soul or his beautiful wife.  Not that there should be a bad fibre.  Worked in the big hoose in Edinburgh for too many years to realise that.  Great people.  But your not getting away with anything Celtic are still the greatest team in the universe.  I am a religious person, and Ghod told mhe!
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  19. jimbo

    jimbo


    How do you put it all together?   The love and passion of Music and football>?   It is possible.

    I remember saying on here a couple of years ago,  JC comes on here every day and reminds us all what it is all about.  There is dedication.  Every day.

    Auldheid,  Patience like a saint.  Has done all the groundwork for us all with little reward so far.  Please Please God his work will come to fruition.

    And the Music?   Was talking to Michael earlier today.  A hugely handsome guy,  with a beautiful wife who works for The celtic Foundation.  Owns the pub, has a lovely car.  What could be better?

    He admitted he felt a wee bit jealous of my passion for music.    Costs nothing too/  What a gift.  Football & music.

    Love & peace

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  20. jimbo

    jimbo


    Where the hell has my ernie B option gone?07  Night time moderator 01

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  21. Helpumoot


    If anyone has the footage of the reporter ‘door stepping’ Dave King at Ibrox on Sunday, could they please post it on here. I can’t seem to find it anywhere. Or maybe they don’t do that any more since Dermot Desmond threatened to take them to the cleaners.
    Not a single Scottish journalist managed to even get a ‘no comment’ out of King, let alone a lawyers letter. Astonishing. 

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  22. upthehoops


    HELPUMOOTMARCH 14, 2018 at 01:19

    If anyone has the footage of the reporter ‘door stepping’ Dave King at Ibrox on Sunday, could they please post it on here. I can’t seem to find it anywhere. Or maybe they don’t do that any more since Dermot Desmond threatened to take them to the cleaners.Not a single Scottish journalist managed to even get a ‘no comment’ out of King, let alone a lawyers letter. Astonishing. 

    =========================

    I doubt any of them even tried. King, Murray and Johnston were all part of previous Ibrox boards that deliberately stiffed the taxman. All are revered by the Scottish media. Enough said. 

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  23. coineanachantaighe


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43395124
    I couldn’t see a  comments option otherwise I might have asked about public broadcasters sweeping things under the carpet.

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  24. wottpi


    JOCKYBHOYMARCH 13, 2018 at 14:17

    Sorry to be a pedant

    “the chances of cup silverware and euro football by others is few and far between” Really?

    Scottish Cup Winners (excluding Celtic and Rangers) in the last ten years and the gap between their previous win.
    Dundee Utd -15
    Hearts – 6
    St Johnstone – 0- being their 1st win
    ICT – 0 – being their 1st win
    Hibs – 116  

    Scottish League Cup Winners (excluding Celtic and Rangers) in the last ten years and the gap between their previous win.
    Kilmarnock  – 0- being their 1st win
    St Mirren  – 0- being their 1st win
    Aberdeen -18 
    Ross County  – 0- being their 1st win

    Yes, like you I find it refreshing to see five clubs have won first piece of silverware but with the best record being Hearts winning a cup every six years then I do believe that the win rate by others can reasonably be described as ‘few and far between.
    Celtic had a treble last season, have a double already with the possibility of further treble this season.
    If Aberdeen win the Scottish cup this year  that will be five years between their league cup victory. If Motherwell win it will be 27 years since their 1991 Scottish Cup win. T’Rangers will of course have won their first major trophy if they win. Even if you dismiss the newco argument it is still eight years since a club from Ibrox won a major trophy.
    Once again how else can this be described as anything other than ‘few and far between’.

    In terms of the other part of your post 

    So rather than “guaranteed success”, I think that speaks volumes for Scottish teams being up for the challenge of the cup – clearly the league is a different kettle of fish, but those winners all had their day in the sun in the last 10 years.

    I am afraid you misquoted me. I said in my post “almost guaranteed success”.
    The “almost” being a recognition that football has the potential to throw up results that may go against the odds of expecting the more costly, more skilled and better managed team to win a match. This of course is more probable in one off cup ties than the league.
    However as per Sunday the reality is that even when up against it in key games Celtic have the means by which to weather a storm and still get a result.
    Therefore on current form and with their current strong financial position the odds are that Celtic are almost guaranteed to win the league for a few years to come and in that same time will most probably pick up more cup silverware than any other club.

    But as you say  “don’t let the facts get in the way…”

    I don’t begrudge Celtic their success, they deserve it for the manner in which the club has been run and managed. I just don’t get why, when on such a crest of a wave, some folks seem unable to live in the moment, ignore the naysayers and just let their football do the talking. 

    However as ROB469 (MARCH 13, 2018 at 16:30) says

    It is not just about football.

     
    Which in one succinct posts sums up a good dealt that is wrong with Scottish Football.

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  25. The_Steed

    The_Steed


    That article on sectarianism is so depressing, but not surprising.
    I have no doubt that there are sectarian elements at most/ all/ some (delete as appropriate) Clubs, but the main protagonists are Celtic and Rangers.  And unfortunately for everyone else, sectarianism sells season tickets so attitudes are unlikely to change anytime soon.

    On top of that, the SFA and SPFL are not going to do anything to harm their golden geese, so there’s no danger of strict liability being introduced or any other clampdown from the authorities.

    Oh yeah, and we’re in the process of repealing the law that was supposed to try and tackle this kind of thing without any replacement being suggested.  Nice one.

    Blimey, I’m even more depressed now than I was before…

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  26. easyJambo


    Not much to report from this morning’s proceedings at the CoS in the David Whitehouse v Chief Constable case, heard by Lord Malcolm.

    Counsel for Police Scotland was successful in arguing for more time to prepare their case  (DCI Robertson’s in particular) against Whitehouse’s request for a Summary Decree against Police Scotland. This was scheduled to take place next week.

    That action will now be delayed until May when it will be heard as part of a related Proof hearing against Police Scotland and the Lord Advocate.  Four days were set aside for that hearing but may now be extended.

    David Grier’s similar action is scheduled for September or October at Glasgow Sheriff Court. Whitehouse and Grier were both in court today.

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  27. bobcobb


    THE_STEEDMARCH 14, 2018 at 12:44
    “Oh yeah, and we’re in the process of repealing the law that was supposed to try and tackle this kind of thing without any replacement being suggested.  Nice one.”
    I think the main argument is that the law under threat of being repealed was never actually required in the first place as legislation already existed that deals with sectarianism, racism etc. The absurdity of the newer law is that it created a situation where an offence was only taking place under the act if a game of football was involved!  

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  28. John Clark


    I will add to eJ’s report ( easyJamboMarch 14, 2018 at 13:27 ) that:
    Counsel (Maria Maguire QC)for the 1st Defender (Chief Constable) was seeking additional time to study a number of affidavits  submitted by the Police since the hearing in January.
    Some of these had been obtained only last week or a little earlier and , what with one thing and another, some 200 hours of time had been lost due to the adverse weather. There were other documents also needing examination.
    Counsel (Mr Currie QC) for the pursuer (Whitehouse) reminded the court that Whitehouse  was personally funding his action, and that further delay was injurious to him; and that the Crown already had all the information that was relevant, and that some of what they wanted was irrelevant. 
    He suggested that Counsel for the 1st Defender was putting up a smokescreen, while they tried to find a way round the difficulty that the original Police averments presented, in that they showed that the arresting officer had no personal knowledge of his own as to the grounds on which he was arresting and detaining Whitehouse,on the two occasions that that had happened, but was merely carrying out a senior officer’s instructions at second-hand. ( He also adverted to the 1st defender’s  requirement to prove ‘malice,’ which they don’t seem to have included, possibly relying on Crown immunity)(???)
    Counsel for the 1st Defender (Maria Maguire QC) rejected the idea that she was creating a smokescreen, and insisted that the 1st Defender’s  proper defence required that time be given to enable the most recent documentation to be properly studied.
    The court adjourned at about 10.50  until 11.30, at which time Lord Malcolm pronounced his decision as follows:(almost word for word) 
    ” There is no fully satisfactory way to deal with the issues raised, but I try to find a way forward to provide justice and fairness to parties.
    As regards Mr Currie’s suggestion that  a smokescreen was being put up , I am unable to confirm that, but I can well understand his anxiety and desire that we should proceed with Summary decree next week.
    But I consider it better to allow  granting of the first defender’s Motion.
    If parties think  4 days [note:already set aside in May] is not enough I can be available the following week too, if parties discuss and let me know as soon as they can.
    I grant parts 1, 3 and 4 Motion  ( which are not opposed)
    as regards part 2 ( which is opposed,and referring to the Roman numerals , I grant I, and II. As regards III , I propose to assume that the Summary Decree application is still sisted, but if the Pursuer wishes to revise, then some notice of that should be intimated to the 1st Defender and to the Court.
    In respect of IV, I continue the Summary decree application in May and the Diet for next week is struck. ”
    Counsel (Maria Maguire QC)for the 1st Defender asked for expenses for today’s proceedings , because it was the public purse that was incurring costs.
    Counsel for Pursuer muttered something which I did not hear
    And Lord Malcolm reserved the question of expenses ( at least I think that’s what he said)
    On the Pursuer’s side of the Court there was 1  bewigged person, one male  and two (younger) female lawyers, as well as Whitehouse and Grier.
    On the 1st Defender’s side there were 2 bewigged  persons, both female, and two female and 1 male lawyers
    Also in Court , there were two gentlemen of the Press, as well as ej and myself. ( and the 2 clerks and the macer, of course)

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  29. easyJambo


    Rangers director Alastair Johnston has been serving as a member of the club’s board for nine months but has yet to be approved as a “fit and proper person” by the Scottish FA.

    The businessman returned to Ibrox last year to take a seat on the board and was present at the club’s AGM in November. 

    However, the position has not yet been rubber-stamped by the authorities at Hampden, with an investigation into the UEFA licensing process holding up a decision.

    Full story here
    https://stv.tv/sport/football/1410322-alastair-johnston-yet-to-be-passed-fit-and-proper-by-sfa/

    If the third sentence is correct, then there must still be some hope of a positive result for the Res 12 campaigners.

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  30. jockybhoy


    Thank you for corroborating my initial statement about cup finals WOTTPI
    I was thinking of it as a spread of the teams: Scotland has a top-flight division of only 12 teams, whereas England a league of 20. There have been 11 winners of a Scottish cup (92% of the top flight league) whereas there were 9 winners of an English cup over the same period (45% of the top division).
    The league is of course also silverware, it has been concentrated amongst 2 teams in Scotland (17% of the league) and 4 teams in England (20%) or three (15%) if you exclude Leicester’s Annus Mirabilis, over the past decade.
    There have therefore been 11 winners of silverware out of a top flight of 12 teams in the past decade in Scotland (92% – althought of course Hibs won a cup from Div1) whilst in England there has been 10 winners out of a top flight of 20 teams (50%).
    My point was to challenge the throwaway line that the chances of cup silverware was “few and far between” – you have shown it’s marginally better than England in absolute terms and I have shown it is much better than England in relative terms.
    As for media coverage – that for me is in the eye of the beholder. I’m not reaching for my pitchfork or anything but from my viewpoint Celtic does seem to attract more negativity than its success would warrant. Is it because of that success that they attract negativity? Or some other reason?
     
    As an aside, there is an irony in that it was anti-Catholic and anti-Irish feeling from the then-“establishment” that IMO was the bedrock of Celtic’s success – it was something that galvanised and drew together a dispersed community and anti-establishment types from far beyond the East-end of Glasgow and that support, financial as well as emotional, has stuck by the team – the Canadian domiciled Fergus McCann and the many-homed Dermot Desmond being key to Celtic’s survival through its darkest times. For that reason I am not perturbed by the coverage of Celtic – we’ll just keep on keeping on…

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  31. nawlite


    EJ, I see that at the bottom of the article re Johnston it states categorically that King is chairman of the club, having gone through due diligence before being approved fit and proper. I believe it has already been established/admitted that he is chairman of the holding company specifically to avoid being assessed for F&P purposes. STV just wrong?

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  32. upthehoops


    The Daily Record online is making rather a fuss about Rangers having to pay more for policing when they play Celtic, than Celtic have to pay for the same fixture at Celtic Park. Yet in 2012 they, along with the rest of the media, were perfectly happy for Rangers to owe Police Scotland a fortune in unpaid bills while still getting their matches covered. So it’s just not fair that Celtic pay less, but the taxpayer is duty bound to cover the cost of policing Rangers games when Rangers just give two fingers to the bills! 

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  33. easyJambo


    nawlite March 14, 2018 at 18:30
    EJ, I see that at the bottom of the article re Johnston it states categorically that King is chairman of the club, having gone through due diligence before being approved fit and proper. I believe it has already been established/admitted that he is chairman of the holding company specifically to avoid being assessed for F&P purposes. STV just wrong?
    =======================
    It is an odd one.

    The SFA confirmed on 19 May 2015 that King was a FPP to be a director of the club.
    https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/scottish-fa-statement-mr-dave-king/?rid=13929

    On the same day Rangers issued a statement on behalf of King in response to the SFA, welcoming the FPP decision,  and that “I dealt fully with all of the Scottish FA’s questions and provided them with everything they required, no matter how personal, in order to prove that there were no barriers to me joining the Board of Rangers International Football Club plc.”
    https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/dave-king-statement-2/

    The odd part is that the SFA considered his status as a director of the club under article 10.2, which they granted. However King himself commented only as a director of the holding company.

    I still wonder if there were assurances given that King would not become a director of TRFC Ltd., in which case there would be nothing to stop him acting as chair of RIFC.  I also recall MASH issuing a statement along those lines too.

    There are different ways in which “Holding Companies” operate.  Most tend to be hands off, with the shareholding represented by nominees to the Club Board (e.g. Hibs with Petrie as Sir Tom Farmer’s nominee, the Foundation of Hearts also plan a similar arrangement once the acquire the majority shareholding from Ann Budge).  Rangers is different in that it appears that the holding company actively “operates” the club. I don’t know if that arrangement was made clear to the SFA at the time the FPP status was granted.

    View Comment
  34. Cluster One

    Cluster One


    UPTHEHOOPSMARCH 14, 2018 at 18:40
    pic.twitter.com/b3xERyfwd8

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  35. Cluster One

    Cluster One


    Attachment

    Sorry pic here.
    So how did they get paid by the administrators?

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  36. John Clark


    easyJamboMarch 14, 2018 at 17:50
    ‘…Johnston was chairman when the club applied to participate in UEFA competition that year but there are questions surrounding Rangers’ tax obligations at that time and what was declared on their licence application.’
    __________________
    Surely it hasn’t taken 6 months plus for the CO to discover who was chairman  at the time the licence was being applied for? I would hope he has discovered other relevant information, or we’re in for a long haul!
    ( Incidentally, and not making any connection to the STV report, (as if!)I still haven’t had even an acknowledgment of receipt of my email to the Minister for Public Health and Sport.21
    I assume that if an email is described as ‘sent’ it has  not bounced back if it’s not showing in the current ‘inbox’, or a meringue?)

    View Comment
  37. Homunculus

    Homunculus


    EASYJAMBO
    MARCH 14, 2018 at 18:56
    =====================================

    They can hardly have failed to notice.

    Dave King makes his proclamations as the de-facto chairman of the football club. In spite of the fact that he has never held any position on it’s board.

    He did a series of Q&A’s on the website about 12 or so, individual “articles” purported to be in response to supporters questions. I can’t imagine many Rangers fans consider themselves a supporter of the holding company.

    There appears to be no line where the PLC ends and the subsidiary begins. To all intents and purposes the board of the PLC is the board of the club. It certainly behaves as such.

    View Comment
  38. naegreetin


    Re : STV/Johnston/SFA Story

    Was penned by Andy Coyle – don’t tell me we have a sports journalist who has been poking around for a story or (more likely?) this has been leaked by the SFA for some reason(s) ?

    View Comment
  39. Cluster One

    Cluster One


    EASYJAMBOMARCH 14, 2018 at 17:50
    7
    0 Rate This
    Rangers director Alastair Johnston has been serving as a member of the club’s board for nine months but has yet to be approved as a “fit and proper person” by the Scottish FA.
    ——————–
    And yet he has significant control

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  40. upthehoops


    Re the Alastair Johnston story. Is he part of a final plan by the SFA to put the licence issue to bed? Something like…

    We have found there were administrative errors on our part, but Stewart Regan has gone. Although there were errors there was no evidence of dishonesty or collusion. We have found Rangers did not provide us with correct information at the time of the licence application. The majority shareholder at the time, Craig Whyte, has been banned sine die from Scottish Football. The Chairman at the time, Alastair Johnston, will not be approved as a fit and proper person to continue with Rangers. 

    View Comment
  41. easyJambo


    upthehoops March 14, 2018 at 19:59
    Re the Alastair Johnston story. Is he part of a final plan by the SFA to put the licence issue to bed? Something like…

    We have found there were administrative errors on our part, but Stewart Regan has gone. Although there were errors there was no evidence of dishonesty or collusion. We have found Rangers did not provide us with correct information at the time of the licence application. The majority shareholder at the time, Craig Whyte, has been banned sine die from Scottish Football. The Chairman at the time, Alastair Johnston, will not be approved as a fit and proper person to continue with Rangers. 
    ====================================
    Although some of the above may come to pass, the big flaw is that Craig Whyte had nothing to do with the licence application in March 2011.  He only took over on 6 May 2011.

    However, if they can blame him for the subsequent disinformation, then they will.

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  42. Cluster One

    Cluster One


    Attachment

    NAWLITEMARCH 14, 2018 at 18:30
    —-
    EASYJAMBOMARCH 14, 2018 at 18:56
    —-
    HOMUNCULUSMARCH 14, 2018 at 19:17
    —————–
    King will not act as a shadow director and he has been very precise in making sure he does not get involved in the affairs of the club.
    You can’t make it up.

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  43. Cluster One

    Cluster One


    Attachment

    What the SFA said

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  44. sitcom


    The very fact that it has taken this long, in my opinion, is a material piece of evidence which clearly demonstrates that the SFA are themselves not fit and proper to run Scottish Football.
    Now is the time to galvanise the Scottish Football fan prior to the sale of next seasons tickets.
    Who can do this? 

    View Comment
  45. Cluster One

    Cluster One


    EX-RANGERS chairman Alastair Johnston is now an ‘individual person with significant control’ at the Ibrox club.
    Gers notified Companies House of the development on November 15.
    ———————–
    Rangers director Alastair Johnston has been serving as a member of the club’s board for nine months but has yet to be approved as a “fit and proper person” by the Scottish FA.
    Companies House documents show Johnston was appointed as a director on June 12, 2017 and a document from November last year states he holds a position that “has the right to exercise, or actually exercises, significant influence or control over the company”.
    —————-
    Rangers director Alastair Johnston has been serving as a member of the club’s board for nine months but has yet to be approved as a “fit and proper person” by the Scottish FA.
    So how does that work then? have the SFA been slow in seeing if AJ is fit and proper or have the SFA been incompetent again or did the SFA not bother with the fine details,or have the SFA not learned from past mistakes?

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  46. John Clark


    Cluster OneMarch 14, 2018 at 20:30
    ‘…What the SFA said….’
    _________________________
    C1, wasn’t this just  an example of the intent-to-mislead by just using the term “Rangers Football Club”(and getting away with it!)  instead of either “The Rangers Football Club Ltd” or “Rangers International Football Club plc”? depending on which entity was being referred to?

    They do this kind of thing with their official website, trying to mislead folk.

    If you were an investor, and keyed  in something like ‘RIFC plc investor page’, looking for the  web page for company SC 437060 to check its company, corporate stuff, you’d see that it does not appear to have a separate website with ‘international’ or’plc’  in its name. What  comes up  is a page headed ,in smallish print,  ‘Rangers Football Club’, then the words “Investor Centre” in big letters, giving the impression that it is the webpage of the share-dealing corporate body. 

    But if you scroll down to the very small print at the bottom of the page you’d find, yes, it’s only the web page of “The Rangers Football Club Ltd” SC 425159! [the corporate info is given, though, otherwise they’d be in real bother with the SE and the FCA and so on]

    It just confirms in my mind that they are desperate to maintain the fiction that there is a simple, single entity which is essentially the same as the  Rangers Football Club of old, by deliberately not using anywhere where they might be easily seen the actual names of the two separate bodies.

    It helps them in the advertising of themselves as being the same club, to those who are unaware of the truth. 

    ( Additionally at the back of my mind is that I read somewhere that it is a requirement under the rules for publicly traded companies to  have its own unambiguous website , and not piggy-back deceitfully on another company’s webpage. I’ll try to check that out, now that I’ve reminded myself)

    It is just so typical of the chicanery and double-speak of the people on the Boards of all the manifestations of would-be  ‘Rangers’ entities.

    View Comment
  47. John Clark


    coineanachantaigheMarch 14, 2018 at 09:00
    ‘..http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43395124I couldn’t see a comments option otherwise I might have asked about public broadcasters sweeping things under the carpet’
    _____________
    I was up early enough this morning to hear the item about the frustration of those officials who report on incidents of ‘sectarianism’ when nothing is done about the incidents.

    I was elsewhere today, and when on the blog, was on about other matters, so it’s only this very minute that I’ve been reading McLaughlin’s stuff in the link you provided. 

    I am even now looking at this sentence with amazement:

    “The Scottish Government has asked for the SPFL’s figures relating to sectarianism to be made public, but so far the league body has resisted.“(my italics)

    No one more than I is anxious to keep ‘Government’ at a safe arm’s-length, and no one is more cynical about the aims and objectives of politicians , especially of those who happen to be in government at any given time.

    BUT for an industry with a significant social problem attached to it (though not caused by it) to be so short-sighted as to ‘resist’ Government to the extent of non-cooperation in identifying the scale of a problem and enlisting the positive help of government to get rid of the problem, is breath-taking in its crass stupidity. Almost inviting what is the phrase, strict liability? to be imposed on it.

    Quite apart from that, while the SPFL may not receive direct funding from Government(?) it certainly benefits in at least a general way from the monies given to the SFA.

    This gives Government some rights to expect cooperation from the industry, on behalf of us  all as taxpayers.

    And one minute ago I heard a reference to this:

    “Kevin Palmer March 14 2018 5:24 PM
    “England coach Eddie Jones has apologised unreservedly for comments made last summer about Wales and Ireland. The Australian referred to Wales as a “s*** place” and spoke about getting revenge over “the scummy Irish” in a remarkable speech at a business conference in July.”

    We appear to be not alone in Sport in having a problem!

    View Comment
  48. bad capt madman


    I have a Brysonian interpretation of Mr Johnson’s fit & proper status.
    In as much as he was previously registered as a fit & proper person, there is no process that would suggest his fit & properness be imperfectly registered insofar as existing appropriate discretionary registrative procedures would not consider unfit or improper registration as imperfect or irregular. You see? 
    No further questions for this witness, m’lud.

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  49. John Clark


    bad capt madmanMarch 15, 2018 at 00:51
    ‘..No further questions for this witness, m’lud.’
    ___________
    And indeed no further questions were asked!

    Of all the pieces of nonsense that were thrown up, the Bryson stuff must rank as the definitive statement of  how to be  a  failure of a lawyer.

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  50. StevieBC

    StevieBC


    Based on what we have observed in recent years re: an alleged corrupt SFA, SPFL and referees – combined with a compliant SMSM and a weak political system…
    ANY successful, ambitious, Scottish football club would logically need to consider leaving the Scottish league, IMO.

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  51. upthehoops


    When did Stewart Gilmour become the sudden go to guy for opinions on the SFA, and where was he for the past six years while some of the most abominable governance imaginable was foisted on our game by the SFA? 

    View Comment
  52. Helpumoot


    UTH
    Where was he? He was was busy having meetings with Charles Green.
    http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/22175390

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  53. John Clark


    HelpumootMarch 15, 2018 at 09:12
    ‘…Where was he? He was busy having meetings with Charles Green.’
    ___________
    You know, I had forgotten that!
    Some of us are old enough to remember a TV cop show in the late 1950s  entitled ‘No Hiding Place’ 
    By geez, this blog has left no hiding place for many folk involved in Scottish Football!19

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  54. Auldheid


    Easy Jambo 20.15
    Correct. Original application of March 2011 approved April 2011 was from SDM regime.
    The monitoring submissions of June and Sept 2011 came from the CW regime and basically used a variation of the original reason that allowed a licence to be granted in order to keep UEFA at bay.
    The June submission would have gone unchallenged had Sherrif Officers not called to start collection proceedings in Aug 2011 and it is the event which presumably led to the June submission being queried by UEFA in Sep 2011.
    The good news for Rangers is that UEFA gave verbal confirmation to SFA in mid Sept  that the submission was accepted, so a conversation between UEFA and SFA must have taken place.
    The Comp Off should be looking into that conversation to establish what was said for UEFA to agree to accept it and the advice SFA gave Rangers on the submission made at end of Sept.

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  55. jean7brodie

    jean7brodie


    John ClarkMarch 15, 2018 at 11:30

    Some of us are old enough to remember a TV cop show in the late 1950s entitled ‘No Hiding Place’.

    OMG John Clark, you have just taken me back to that era. I loved that programme then. Not so sure about it now though!!12

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  56. Ballyargus

    Ballyargus


    I think this sums up events since 2012. Jimbo showed the way with adding music videos and in some circumstances it enhances the site, I think this is one of them.

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  57. Helpumoot


    OBFA vote 62 – 60 for repeal. 

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  58. Cluster One

    Cluster One


    Re the AJ fit &proper.
    Dave king had to get the go-ahead first from a judge Lord Woolman,for Dave king to take a seat on the board.Dave king had then only to convince the SFA he was fit & proper.
    Rod McKenzie (RM),
    RM was of the opinion that some officials were less important in the administration than others and made the point that it is the only the SFA who can rule on who is Fit and Proper.
    http://celticunderground.net/doncaster-mckenzie-fans-media-meeting/
    Why did Dave king have to go to a judge first?
    Was it because of criminal convictions?

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  59. Cluster One

    Cluster One


    Attachment

    Dave king article

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  60. Homunculus

    Homunculus


    As I said at the time, Dave King is absolutely fit and proper for the Rangers board.

    He is a liar and fraudster.

    No wait, it was the old club which lied to the SFA and defrauded tax.

    My bad.

    No wait, he was on the board of that one when they lied to the football authorities and committed fraud. 

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  61. John Clark


      Some other BDO business tomorrow to do  with the Liquidation of “REF 2012 plc” (presumably meant to be RFC?)      
    Presence of Counsel not required, so must just be some technical procedure. I won’t be attending.          

        LADYCARMICHAEL                            

    PETITION DEPARTMENT                                       
    UNSTARRED MOTIONS
    ……………….
    ……………….
    P68/18 Pet: James Stephen &c for interdict re REF 2012 Plc

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  62. wottpi


    HELPUMOOTMARCH 15, 2018 at 18:11

    I note a bit of celebrating going on re the repeal of the OBFA and appreciate all the arguments against the Act.  I have never been a fan of knee jerk legislation and more laws for the sake of it.

    However,  I’ll keep my powder dry until real and positive steps are taken to properly deal with the issues at hand.

    As my mates always say;-  before you leave one pub you better have a plan of where you are going next otherwise you end up aimlessly wandering the streets.

    While the hope is that Police Scotland will use what powers they have elsewhere, my fear is that as we head towards the 20th year of the 21st century we may not be any further forward in a few years time.

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  63. easyJambo


    John Clark March 15, 2018 at 21:35
    Some other BDO business tomorrow to do  with the Liquidation of “REF 2012 plc” (presumably meant to be RFC?)       Presence of Counsel not required, so must just be some technical procedure. I won’t be attending.      
    LADYCARMICHAEL                            
    PETITION DEPARTMENT                                       
    UNSTARRED MOTIONS
    P68/18 Pet: James Stephen &c for interdict re REF 2012 Plc
    ============================
    Good spot JC.  I didn’t pick that one up on first reading of the Rolls

    It’s an interesting one all the same.  Why would BDO wish to take out an interdict? And against whom?

    Could it be to stop the Henderson and Jones’ (ex Wavetower) claim, or something involving D&P, or perhaps a creditor such as HMRC?

    View Comment
  64. gunnerb


    WOTTPIMARCH 15, 2018 at 21:52
    ————————————————
    I am constantly being told that the existing law is more than enough to deal with ‘unacceptable behaviour’. That being the case it surprises me that the police seemed to pursue football fans with vigour only when the OBFA was enacted.Why the lack of such energy prior to this? If there are adequate laws then they should apply them with the same enthusiasm regardless of where the offence takes place and it is up to our elected officials to ensure that they do. I understand your cynicism WOTPI but in my opinion the act was a flawed and misguided attempt to apply some kind of moral equivalence that certain quarters may have believed was politically expedient.If it is needed then the authorities should draw up a list of chants/songs that are exemplars of the unacceptable….and be fully prepared to explain why.

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  65. wottpi


    GUNNERBMARCH 15, 2018 at 22:19
    From other accounts this week the footballing authorities have a list.
    I agree that explanations may be required and then debated but the lists clearly exist.
    Should that be the next step after today. To publicly agree a list and then stick to it?

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  66. Auldheid


    GunnerB 22:19
    Here are my thoughts on a list from 2009.

    How To Tell If a Song Is Sectarian   Written by Auldheid    Saturday, 21 February 2009
    Every now and then a songs debate flares up in Celtic Cyberspace and the one thing you can be sure of is no agreement will emerge. This will always be so unless there is a set of criteria to go by. Examining The Billy Boys offers one set of criteria for a sectarian song in that the words “up to our knees in fenian blood” offers violence to a person of an identifiable religious faith either directly or in this case by inference, fenian = Catholic. If however you take the Soldiers Song or The Fields that are deemed acceptable by Celtic if I understand it correctly the thing about these songs is that they are “inward aimed” or “centred on self” celebrating that sense of self.
     Sectarianism is defined as ” bigotry, discrimination, prejudice or hatred arising from attaching importance to perceived differences between subdivisions within a group, such as between different denominations of a religion or the factions of a political movement. The key words are sub divisions WITHIN a group. The group involved with The Fields or Soldiers is a single group where no sub division exists. For a song to be sectarian it has to project OUTWARD from that group ideas or beliefs that the group wish to impose on others or to express distaste or hatred for those OUTSIDE the group. The key words are inward celebration and outward projection. The first cannot by definition be sectarian but the latter depending on the words can. So why not use those criteria to at least draw a line? Now on what is objectionable to others: songs that are inward celebrating might cause offence to others but they are the ones taking offence, it is not being offered to or aimed at them. It is something intolerant in them that sparks the offence taken. If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, why not offence? We as Celtic supporters are not responsible if others take offence at our songs of inward celebration. It is only when outward projection as in say add ons occurs that sectarianism might apply. These criteria would apply to Rangers songs as well as our own. This debate has been going on for ever. You would think someone would have penned official criteria from usage by now to give guidance to the support. Note criteria is NOT a song list. Folk can use the criteria to look at what they sing and maybe think about why they are singing what they are. Inward celebration of belief/faith/culture/tradition or outward projection of those things on to others. Question the motivation, using the criteria, not the words.

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  67. Helpumoot


    I’m glad to see the back of OBFA. It used to be in the early days of this site that if you wanted to earn yourself a seat on the naughty step, make a post about OC/NC or sectarianism/bigotry. (Having a pop at a referee was also a no no.)
    Now, the ‘big lie’ is seen as core to the football integrity debate, posters can freely discuss OBFA and a certain semifinal where the SFA provided six blind officials for the match kinda elevated referees back to ‘fair game’ status again, on here anyway.
    Im not too worried that there is nothing to replace it and I hope there is no rush to either. When OBFA came in, probably the most oft repeated phrase on blog sites was ‘elephant in the room.’ The police called for OBFA, one senior officer actually wanted the Old Firm games banned forever. If ever anyone’s mantle-piece deserved to have the placque, ‘Be careful what you wish for..’, it was his.
    Perhaps after six years, the public is more aware. Young people certainly seem to be. They don’t tolerate racism, sexism or homophobia, they are hardly going to tolerate anti-Irish racism or anti-Catholic bigotry/sectarianism. (For those in any confusion, that’s the elephant.)
    So this post-OBFA space might be useful if it helps Scotland reflect on a few painful home truths about itself.

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  68. tayred

    tayred


    OBFA was deeply flawed, of that there isn’t much debate I feel. That we needed to even consider the introduction of such a law is a very, very sad reflection on our society.

    Football was caught in the politicians moonbeams because it is the most obvious window into the sickness that underlies part of the Scottish society. Even were it to be removed from the terracing, it would still be there, still be a embarrassment to most in society, still be a huge and pathetic stain on a city I hugely enjoyed living in.

    Yes, I was asked that question upon arrival in Glasgow, in a staff coffee room in one of the major seats of learning of Scotland, and by not just one or two very (and on one case extremely) well educated people. I was fresh faced from the NE of Scotland and in all honesty had no idea if I was a protestant/catholic. That is the honest truth, cos I had never had to consider it before, not once, never, not at all, not even for a second. But within 24 hours in Glasgow I knew far more than I ever needed or wanted to. Personally, I think for most the religion is irrelevant, its just an excuse to behave like a Neanderthal. How many of the knuckle draggers singing this crap actually actively attend church? It’s a convenient excuse.

    The law, police etc are powerless in a stadium of 50k people. The SFA/SPFL and the clubs are not. CFC largely removed it from their stadia, but there is some evidence of it creeping back. And why not, their brothers from the West are happily bashing out their ditties without a care in the world. The only way to stamp it out is not by hauling out one or two individuals from the crowd and not by direct police action – that just turns them into some form of folk hero! The only way is point deductions (fines won’t work, most fans couldn’t give two hoots about fines). In any game where certain songs can be heard 1 point deduction, if it continues after say 5 games, then 2 point deduction and so on. The fans will soon catch on, and those to stupid to realise will be self-policed by the more engaged members of the crowd.

    I know there will some here who will throw up their arms in disgust, wail things like “but what songs would you include”. List them, add to the list if required as the season progresses. Be up front about it, and ask the bloody media to stop ignoring the problem but tackle it, make it a thing of disgust. This pussy footing around the issue year after year says all you need to know about Scotland (and its press and institutions), or at least part of Scotland. I love Glasgow, but god I hate it for this…

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  69. Carfins Finest

    Carfins Finest


    The people in Scotland who hold significant say in how the country is run have an easy get out when it comes to Sectarianism. Its the same as ‘Obsessed’ or ‘Paranoid’ and is designed to make you look away. It is simply ‘ One side is as bad as the other’. This is absolute nonsense but as long as this little lie is peddled then the longer the guilty can hide behind its façade. Scotland has a real anti Catholic issue and it is rife in all the highest offices in our wee country. Until the ‘ One side is as bad as the other’ mantra is exposed as a lie to protect the guilty then nothing will change. ‘Nil by mouth’ and other like minded bodies have all fallen into the trap thus rendering themselves useless. Do we really expect football clubs to address an issue that Government. Law Lords and the SMSM all avoid squaring up to?

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  70. bobcobb


    I don’t normally like getting into the sectarian debate on this site, but I feel the need to suggest that the sooner people realise sectarianism isn’t an exclusively football issue, the sooner we may eradicate it. So long as our society openly funds orange walks via policing costs, and so long as licensing boards won’t shut down bars or clubs that have been exposed as dens of sectarianism and racism, what use is an act that focuses only on football?
    Expecting football to sort a societal problem is nothing more than a token gesture by lazy politicians who lack the courage to actually deal with the issue. Politicians on ALL sides.
    That’s what the media and organisations like Nil By Mouth, should be reporting on. Football is an easy target.

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  71. scottc

    scottc


    CLUSTER ONE
    MARCH 15, 2018 at 18:37
    …Why did Dave king have to go to a judge first?Was it because of criminal convictions?

    Was it not because he had been on the board of the old club and there was some question regarding whether the new one coould be regarded as a phoenix?

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  72. Kilgore Trout


    BOBCOBB @ 09:59

    Well said. Absolutely agree.
    There is no such thing as a 90-minute bigot.

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  73. wottpi


    I think everyone can agree that the sectarian issue is wider and deeper than football.

    As has been discussed, in relation to whats songs and actions constitute sectarianism there is a range of opinions and as such legal challenges can be made.

    However football is a closed shop and need not bother about the laws of the land.

    In the same way someone could be asked to leave a ground for being drunk, abusive, causing damage etc  an agreed list of songs and behaviours could be drawn up and any fans getting up to nonsense would cost their club points and other punishments  under football authority rules.

    Continual infringements should result in cumulative and ever increasing punishment. Once a league title has become mathematically impossible to lose any infringement by the top club will involve automatic demotion to 6 pts behind second place.

    We have nothing at all to loose in terms of cleaning up the game and leave society sort out the rest of the issues.

    If a players gets abused in the supermarket or an airport lounge then that’s not football’s problem if they have got their own house in order. Let the Police and the courts deal with that.

    I still maintain one season of the fear of not having ‘world domination’, bragging rights and free falling down the league table or cup expulsion would sort it out once and for all.

    We know that it is Celtic and T’Rangers who are the focus of most of the discussions but there has recently been an emboldened move by a minority at Tynecastle to bring Unionism and some of its uglier associated traits  into the club. There has been an element keen to display such behaviour in the away support over the years but this season it has also reared its head at Tynecastle. The issue is covered widely on Jamboskickback and the vast majority of Hearts fans on there just wish these types would F-Off and steer well clear of the club or head to Govan if that’s their bag.

    As with a ‘young team’ that got banned a few years back I hope the club can nip this in the bud but clearly when some folk hear the Billy Boys and the like being belted out elsewhere they think “well why not go for it ourselves”.

    I still don’t get the argument that clubs cannot be held responsible for the actions of all of their fans. In nearly every other sporting venue or entertainment establishment the management sort out those who are spoiling it for others. Why is Scottish football any different?

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  74. John Clark


    Religious sectarianism has lain right at the very the heart of UK politics  for several centuries.

    I refer to the Act of Settlement 1701.
    Although this Act was amended by the Succession to the Crown Act 2013 which introduced a few changes  the provision of the Act of Settlement requiring the monarch to be a Protestant was not removed.

    In my view, pissing about with little bits of half-a.sed legislation in the Scottish parliament is a waste of time for as long as the power structure in our now increasingly non-Christian polity is predicated on discriminatory assertion that a  Roman Catholic may not  be the Monarch.

    It’s one thing to have to put up with the nonsense of ‘Monarchy’ [Xi Jinping’s grab on the idea of making himself ‘president for life’ is as nothing compared to the ridiculous concept  of hereditary monarchy].

    It’s quite another to have to accept the specific exclusion from that seat of influence and power of members of one religious persuasion. 

    The argument in support of that discrimination is that the state-Church is Protestant therefore the Monarch as its head requires to be Protestant.

    But that sort of  raises the question: why is there a state-sponsored Church in this day and age when there are millions of citizens ( I do not recognise ‘subjects’) of many different religions and none, who pay their taxes  and contribute in every way to the good of the nation?

    Or, to put it another way, why does the Act not NOW specifically exclude Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, and members of any and all non-Christian religions , as well as all unbelievers,on the same grounds?
    Because no one would even dare suggest it.
    But it is somehow acceptable to continue to exclude RCs.

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  75. Auldheid


    A wee add on to How To Tell if Song is Sectarian.
    Applying the criteria there would The Fields of Athenry or Derry’s Walls be classed as sectarian?
    From what I know of both none offer violence to an external sect. They celebrate a historical event or events important in the lives of some folk who do not want to forget their heritage and I don’t see what is wrong with that.
    So if someone of the blue persuasion is offended by The Fields (or any other songs of non violence) that is surely a problem of their intolerance and instead of making it legal as the OBAF did, they should be left to post on forums with like minded folk. The same applies if a supporter of green persuasion is offended by Derry’s ‘Walls.
    What offends person A will not necessarily offend person B so you cannot legislate offensiveness fairly. 
    That is not to say hate should not be legislated against,  but there certainly needs to be some accomodation on both sides on what is hateful to the other and why so that clubs know what they are liable for.
    In short a dialogue is required.

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