Fantastic Voyage ..

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.. and why sites like SFM matter.

When SFM blasted off in 2012, we had a fair idea that Scottish Football had not only veered violently off the rails,but that it had done so deliberately.

Our intention was to try to help – in some small way – to steer it towards a straighter track, and to see it restored as a sporting institution and spectacle worthy of sporting principles. To see integrity restored to our national sport, to see honesty, fairness and adherence to both the laws of the game and land.

Of course we didn’t know what route our own journey would take, even although we were clear about the destination. What we did know about the journey was that no matter the route, the first leg started outside our own front door.

Who knew we would be taken on a magical mystery tour, blindfolded, spun around a few times, but still find ourselves at that front door. Via the road less traveled, the high road, low road and an endless series of shortcuts and wrong turns we hadn’t moved an inch.

On every stage of the “journey” the SFA, the SPL, and their quasi-legal tribunals & inquiries ducked and dived, twisted and bent the truth, and aided and abetted the greatest scam in the history of UK sport.

Newly coined idioms emerged; “Imperfect registrations”, “boiler-room subsidiary”, “emerged from liquidation”, “ethereal entity”, – and the real doozy; “other clubs could also have broken the tax laws had they wished” – all in an effort to;
1. pretend that what happened had not happened, that cheating was fair, that the rights of one football club were not enshrined in law but decreed by the heavens;
2. hope against hope that the rest of us had gone stark raving bonkers and would accept the “Santa is alive” fallacy as truth.

The facts were;

  • That Rangers, having been subjected to the ignominy of administration, had now entered liquidation, leaving behind a mountain of debts, the vast majority of which were underwritten by us, by the taxpaying public.
  • That almost £100m of funds was denied to the exchequer as the first ever nationalised football club, bought and paid for by the people of the UK, slid into oblivion, a trail of devastation in its wake.
  • That in the course of that calamitous conduct of business, the SFA and the SPL were given false and incomplete information about the nature of players’ contracts. This in order to cover up a tax scheme that was (according to the man who devised it) operated incorrectly and thus unawfully.

Every football club in Scotland and their fans were cheated by a club which quite simply refused to play by the rules – even as the noose around its neck was being pulled ever tighter due to HMRC and Lloyd’s Banking Group taking steps to erect buffers ahead of the onrushing gravy train.

The result was that 140 years of history came to an end; an insatiable hunger for success ironically bringing about the ultimate and irreversible failure of a Scottish institution.

Not for them though, the recognition that they had transgressed. “It wasn’t Rangers – it was Craig White” was the cry.

I’m sure Hearts supporters in 1965 might have said the same about Willie Wallace after he missed a sitter in the final league match against Kilmarnock at Tynecastle. Had he scored, Hearts would have won the league, so Hearts should, by the RFC logic, claim that title anyway. Likewise Celtic fans could have pointed a finger at Georgios Samaras when his penalty miss at Ibrox lost them the league.

More facts: every football club in the world is the sum of its parts, onfield and off. We take the good that people do for our clubs and celebrate them. We have no right to cherry pick and ignore the consequences when people screw up.

Footballers – and administrators – are often gifted individuals given to moments of blinding inspiration which benefits their clubs. They are also often prone to reckless behaviours, the consequences of which we all have to bear. Murray’s knack of talking money out of trees and his reckless and irresponsible practices gave Rangers huge success, but that behaviour also – perhaps inevitably – led to the appointment with the buffers mentioned above.

The good and the bad. Both sides of the same coin, inseparable, inevitable, and there is no choice but to accept the whole package, not just the good bits.

In the circumstances, the hostility towards the old club was understandable. It was always a given that Celtic fans were unlikely to cut them slack as they headed towards an ignominious end.

However, had there been contrition, an acknowledgement of wrongs and some humility in response to talk of consequences, fans of other clubs outside of the Old Firm bubble may have extended some sympathy. But there was none of this. Instead, denial, arrogance, blaming others (“kicking us when we are down”, “who are these people?”) and a pugilistic reaction to the very idea of punishment. The outcome was an absence of sympathy for the plight of RFC.

Let’s revisit this; on an industrial scale, Rangers misrepresented (accidentally if you believe that the board of a PLC was comprised exclusively of halfwits and individuals unable to bite their own fingers) crucial information regarding compliance with registration rules, They subsequently withheld evidence from multiple enquiries into their conduct over these registration rules.

As far back as 1996, Rangers PAYE affairs were being investigated by HMRC and incurring penalties (not a very well publicised event).

Then, for more than a decade, principally through the 2000s they failed to comply with taxation statutes and with crucially important (not merely bureaucratic) SFA rules designed to preserve the intergity of football as a sport. They cheated the revenue out of millions and the fans of every club in Scotland out of their aspirations for their own clubs.

Rangers however were still box-office, and there were 50,000 fans providing a market for the product the now extinct club had provided through the decades. Surely someone would step in and take up the Rangers cause? Surely those people would eschew the catastrophic errors of judgement that had resulted in the economic and existential demise of the original club? Surely they would also acknowledge those mistakes in an effort to convince the clubs and fans they had wronged that this was an organisation that recognised the interdependence of sporting activity?

Surely.

But no. Sadly, no.

Even then though, that matters little.

Why? Because the sins of the old Rangers cannot be visited on the new. The behavior of the new club is a matter for a different argument, but it isn’t relevant in a legal or regulatory sense to the old club. Legally or morally there is nothing you can do to them to ensure that a repeat of the same spivish behaviour does not occur.

So why the fuss? Why the six years of relentless campaigning by SFM and dozens of other football sites?

Because it does matter that the authorities themselves – including all the other clubs – and the MSM have gone out of their way to cover it all up.

No-one at the SFA will talk to fans who have provided them with evidence of wrongdoing in the matter of the 2011 Euro licence. No one will address the witholding of evidence from the LNS enquiry, nor the false premise upon which it arrived at some of its conclusions, nor the mysteriously shifting goalposts of the period investigated by the LNS enquiry, nor the acid-flashback consciousness of the newly arrived at – and totally irregular and unlawful – “imperfect registration” status.

What still requires to be done is to root out those who have enabled the big lie. We need to hold accountable those who have sought to bury evidence, to dispense with logic and to treat fans with contempt and ridicule when legitimate concerns are raised.

We need to replace those people with people of integrity, folk who love the game as much as we do, people who will not yield to intimidation or the dog-whistle.

There are foot thick rule-books in place in football, and the authorities have plummeted into the Asimovian depths of a regulatory Fantastic Voyage to circumvent those. The SFA Chief Executive even told our own John Clark that he would “do nothing” had he been presented with evidence of wrong doing (and he had been presented with such evidence).

Yet one simple rule would have saw the whole sorry escapade brought to a halt – the universal rule that requires people to show due respect and good faith to others.

As I said, we started this journey at our own front door. The authorities and their enablers in the media have been taking us on the Uber route for six years. But we still know the destination, and we will get there. The SFA, the SPFL and the MSM have been relentless in their dedication to half-truths and misdirection.

But the fans are even more relentless in their pursuit of truth and their determination to see our game returned to its status a a sport. That is why outlets like SFM are important. Not because we are any better than others, but because we give a voice to the people in the game who matter most – to the paying public of Scotland who turn up in numbers relatively greater than any other country in Europe. They need that voice. We are not going anywhere.

1668 COMMENTS

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  1. It is now seven and a half hours since I posted a link given to me that at last has possible documented proof`of club continuity and yet not one person has deemed it worthwhile to comment on never mind refute or confirm it. Plenty of  TUs but nobody has anything to say.

    I have yet to be convinced that it changes anything in our stance and have tried to post the findings of my initial search over the same seven hours but something in the system is preventing that.

    Surely there are still at least a few people on here that do not ignore an opposing case.  

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  2. To try to get the post accepted I will break it down into smaller pieces.

    Regarding my post @ 10.12

    It may be that it was an opinion of the administrators as all other evidence and natural logic suggests the statement cannot be supported but let's dissect it on here anyway.

    I haven't had a lot of time to research it but have found it to be repeated in the August report to creditors from D & P. As yet I have not managed to get access to the final report which I believe was issued in October.

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  3. OK so it rejected the second bit so let me change it.

    On the negative side, these statements in the reports did cause some concern in legal circles. One such concerned legal firm was Halliday Campbell WS  who have published this piece –

    <<webpage link removed>>

    In it they have this to say.

        Now, in fact, some of these “assets” were not actually the administrators’ to sell, at least not without the cooperation of others. The Joint Administrators' report suggests at certain points that various interested parties were going to purchase the "history" of the club but unsurprisingly that isn't listed as an asset. And just as you can’t buy “history”, you can’t just sell SFA membership or a share in the SPL. Similarly, the players were entitled to object to their contracts transferring to anyone else and so the assets comprising the contractual obligations which they owed to the company could not simply be sold to Sevco.

    But this of course is not definitive and returns us to the he said/she said side of the debate. But never the less I am pleased you have at last moved away from the nit picking minutiae.

    Now over to others.

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  4. Many hundreds of words by the usual suspect but not a peep on providing incontrovertible evidence of precisely when and through what verifiable process the club left the company within the context of an incorporated club, despite umpteen requests for such proof.

    You could be forgiven for thinking that no proof exists and that the much talked about separation of club and company was merely a fabrication to suit an agenda.

    The same club myth falls down on this matter regardless of everything else. 

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  5. Highlander,

    LM2 has provided a link that needs to be debated. Or is there now a block feature on SFM that means you missed my post at around 10.12 this morning?

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  6. Reiver 22nd August 2018 at 18:05 

    It is now seven and a half hours since I posted a link given to me that at last has possible documented proof`of club continuity and yet not one person has deemed it worthwhile to comment on never mind refute or confirm it. Plenty of  TUs but nobody has anything to say.

    ===================================

    The most likely reason you haven't had a bite is the fear of triggering yet another circular argument on what constitutes a "club", "business", "business and assets", "going concern", "legal entity", "basket of assets", "brand" "trading style" et al.

    The "final" creditors report only referred you back to a previous creditors report.

    A detailed outline of the marketing process undertaken by the Joint Administrators which preceded the sale of the business, history and certain assets of the Club to Newco on 14 June 2012, was provided in the previous report to creditors dated 10 July 2012.

    Personally, I don't believe that D&P's description of a "going concern" sale was an accurate one of a business/legal entity/club that had failed to obtain the agreement of its creditors that would allow it to survive as a going concern. Therefore what the administrators sold could only be the distressed assets of a failed business/legal entity/club.

    P.S. I’ve given my view, but I’m not looking for a response, nor will I engage in another circular argument on the subject.

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  7. I have tried various ways of providing the link to the Halliday Campbell article but are allowed.

    Try searching for rangers again gratuitous alienations

     

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  8. Mark Guidi on Clyde SSB tonight declaring Stevie Gerrard to be “special” I  was sceptical myself of his appointment but describing him in the same manner as Jose Mourinho described himself is more than a bit premature. It’s the sort of comment internet bampots might file away for future use. Not me though.

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  9. Reiver, the blog decides what gets debated not any one individual .

     

    For my part OC/NC has never interested me . I don’t get involved in the argument and i’m probably not alone in that .

     

    There are issues of far more importance to me , such as cheating , governance , lying to authorities, lying to fellow clubs , fit and proper suitability , refusal to comply with legal orders, and manipulation of accounts 

     

     

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  10. EJ

    So we are confronted with what is possibly a valid point from a company who was found not-guilty of wrong doing in the handling of the Rangers administration and our choice is not to give it an airing? I don't recall it being a point that has been raised before and if it IS new then surely it must be discussed, if only to disprove it. These are reports produced by a company that must adhere to set standards for fear of sanctions. If, as the Halliday articles suggest that History is not and asset there is an avenue for us to get a clear rule because of D & P's error.

    We repeat over and over the points that claim that the 2011 licensing was a fix but don't complain that it is clogging up the site.Neither do we see any need to give it a separate thread like the OC/NC debate. A thread that's link is a small obscure one line compared to the page sized link to all other forums ensuring that the casual visitor doesn't go there.

    We are starting to look like we don't want to hear opposing views. Does that not damage the site's reputation?

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  11. Reiver 22nd August 2018 at 18:14
    legal firm was Halliday Campbell WS have this to say.
    the joint administrators’ report suggests at certain points that various interested parties were going to purchase the “history” of the club but unsurprisingly that isn’t listed as an asset. and just as you can’t buy “history”, you can’t just sell sfa membership or a share in the spl.
    …………..So legal firm say’s you can’t buy history.

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  12. Barcabhoy

    I could fire the same back to you for asking for a subject to be ditched.

    All the issues that you quote fall if it is shown that there was no continuity. It is integral to all the apparent corruption. It is the reason for the 5WA. It is the reason for private meetings in the Hotel du Vin. It is part of ever issue that you list.

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  13. I love every single poster on this site.  Every one.   It's by far the best football blog in the whole world.  so stop arguing.  Rangers died in 2012 that's it.  There is a new Rangers, looking good I'm afraid. Deal with it.

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  14. CO

    Spot on.

    But that could be rated as an opinion just as D & P's assertion that they sold the history could. Until it is questioned in a court of law it has not been proven one way or another.

    Because Halliday Campbell are lawyers doesn't mean what they say is true.

    How many lawyers state that there client couldn't have committed the crime when to everyone looking on it is obvious they did. Don't trust a lawyer,

    But it does need to be discussed otherwise, in our attempt to get rid of one troll, we are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

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  15. Barcabhoy 22nd August 2018 at 18:49  

    There are issues of far more importance to me , such as cheating , governance , lying to authorities, lying to fellow clubs , fit and proper suitability , refusal to comply with legal orders, and manipulation of accounts 

    ________________________________________________________________

    Agree Barcabhoy. I am sick to the back teeth with all this nonsense re OC/NC. I read every post and maybe shouldn't. I know what I think about it!! Cheating is the thing we should be discussing.

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  16. Chill Jimbo.

    In my opinion the site needs to have a good look at itself or else it will lose the good reputation it has rightly built, and that is bound to be fractious. As you have noticed yourself we are attracting in increasing number of visitors who are only interested when what we find sticks the boot into the team in blue. There is a message in the increase in TUs that are more for the team a poster supports than what they say.

    Jean

    As I said earlier no matter how sickening it seems OC/NC is at the heart of all that you want fixed in the game.

    DBD

    Don't thank me. LM2 brought it to my attention and I felt that it was important for me to disprove it if I could. I don't believe what they said but it has been said and is out there from a source that should be reliable. there was much about Duff and Phelps handling of the affair that dumbfounded me so much so that I was not surprised when they were charged in connection with that work. The fact is though that they were found not guilty and that almost gives more credence to their views.

    There is much else that denies continuation happened but if D&P's position is not challenged then I cannot be 100% in the NC camp.

    By the looks of the reaction it may be that I will be in the unenviable position of having a shorter tenure on here than Kenny Miller did at Livingston.

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  17. Reiver 22nd August 2018 at 19:17 Don't trust a lawyerfrown

     

    D & P's assertion that they sold the history could. Until it is questioned in a court of law it has not been proven one way or another..

    ……………….

    That i would love to see

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  18. Shug,

    I take it you are supporter of one of the big two.

    This is the response we diddy team supporters get slung at us all the time when we are genuinely trying to be impartial.

    It's almost a "Yes, but who do you really support?" in reverse.

    It is a perfect example of how the standards of this site are being allowed to slip. Say something about the Ibrox club that is not bad or say something about the Parkhead club that is not good (no matter how true) then the attacks start.

    This site is NOT about club allegiance it is club independent.

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  19. Reiver 22nd August 2018 at 19:52  

    Jean

    As I said earlier no matter how sickening it seems OC/NC is at the heart of all that you want fixed in the game.

    _________________________________________________________________________________

    With respect, Reiver, please don't tell me what I want fixed. Fix the cheating and all else falls into place.

     

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  20. By the looks of the reaction it may be that I will be in the unenviable position of having a shorter tenure on here than Kenny Miller did at Livingston. …………. With comedy like that, i think you have a while longerenlightened

    just catching up and not had a chance to read your link, but will in a second. But from what i'm gathering it is something D&P have said about selling the history.(sorry if i'm on the wrong track,just wanted to reply quick)

    sold history…. They could say sold history all they want.Have they ever sold history before or after 2012?

    And if they did sell they should have an itemised bill and sevco would have an itemised receipt.

    anyway i'm away to read link.

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  21. Reiver 22nd August 2018 at 20:04  

      As I said earlier no matter how sickening it seems OC/NC is at the heart of all that you want fixed in the game.

    _________________________________________

    Rinse and repeat.

     

     

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  22. You're a quick reader Jean. I deleted them as quickly as I could.

    The system has been chewing up my posts and throwing them out into the ether for me today and I thought it had happened again as I couldn't see it on my screen. I quickly split the post into three to see if I could get at least some accepted. The original appeared after I posted the replacements. I should have done a couple of refreshes first.

    Sorry

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  23. Given today’s developments across the water perhaps what has been missing in our discussion of what really happened in 2011-12 is for someone at the centre of it all to spill the beans so to speak. There have been tantalising glimpses through the numerous and continuing court cases but as yet no Michael Cohen moment. Interestingly it was while investigating collusion with Russia that the FBI found out about the dodgy payments from the campaign fund. This may be what happens here too. In the meantime we are where we are. The dark clouds of doubt and suspicion remain over Rangers and will do so for ever until someone comes clean by accident or design. So can I ask if OCNC is off the table are the SMSM still fair game?

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  24. Reiver 22nd August 2018 at 20:36
    0 0 Rate This

    CO

    You are of course correct and to find that bill of sale would settle the whole issue. That where I see the importance of this topic.
    …………..
    king wanted to bring the old club out of liquidation(i could have posted the article,but no upload image yet)
    Anyway, to stop other clubs laughing at them. All king has to do is make public that bill of sale. if he has it, and all his troubles will go away and no need to spend millions on bringing the old club out of liquidation.But he better hurry up the liquidation prosess must be coming to an end soon.

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  25. Shug,

    I take it you are supporter of one of the big two.

    This is the response we diddy team supporters get slung at us all the time when we are genuinely trying to be impartial.

    It's almost a "Yes, but who do you really support?" in reverse.

    It is a perfect example of how the standards of this site are being allowed to slip. Say something about the Ibrox club that is not bad or say something about the Parkhead club that is not good (no matter how true) then the attacks start.

    This site is NOT about club allegiance it is club independent.

     

    Think if you are the real Reiver then you would already know that I'm a Hibee as we have mentioned this before you left anyway just my opinion and I will leave it at that no need to reply thanks.

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  26. Yeah CO, but what someone could do that would help us but doesn't is not proof of anything.

    This is where we stand on just about everything. I am still firm on my position on everything but I am aware of all these "possibles" and my decision is made on weight of evidence but the people we really need to accept that there is corruption involved are the day to day fan. They need a quick hit piece of proof. Try spending half an hour to an hour informing them of all the ins and outs that lead to the proof and you will be talking to yourself after ten minutes The media too need an incontrovertible fact to force them to print. That is what we need to find.

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  27. The media:

    These roadless hills have always been a refuge for rogues and reivers, a lawless area in times past where cattle-rustlers would hide their stolen beasts in secret clefts and hollows.’

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  28. Shug

    No I don't remember that you are a Hibby. I see so many posts on so many sites that this old brain has given up remembering. On the other hand if I had spoken to you once in the 1970's my memory would be 100%

    As to my identity. When I returned BP was so convinced that I was who I said I was that it was he who retrieved my avatar for me. It may have been my email address that convinced him.

    If you want to know where I stand with regards to LM2 pop over to the OC/NC thread and check out my response to him yesterday.

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  29. Reiver 22nd August 2018 at 21:25  

    Surely it is in the interest of the creditors to have the best people representing their interest and that any potential buyer/suitor should not have had their name slandered in the terrraces and have paid journalists track them to the USA.
    Just a thought not requiring an answer.
    The internet abuse that shocked Miller, his beauty queen girlfriend Becky …

     

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  30. I don't care how much Lawman is disliked on here.  I love him.

    This is for him whether he likes or not.

     

    I love you Lord Jesus, My love above all things.

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  31. I have just come on to the blog for this evening and I find again that people are not citing the posts they are replying to or commenting on., as if they expected that everybody had only just read their immediately previous post.

    This makes it difficult for others to know for sure what the point at issue is that the poster they are replying to had raised, and so makes their response difficult to relate to.

    It only takes seconds to cut and paste  a poster's name and time and date of his/her post, and to put the relevant issue in his/her post by quoting a few words or a
    sentence or two from the post.
    And drawing a line to separate the original comment from the reply!

    Most of us do. It would be good if we all did!

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  32. Shock! horror! gasp!

    In less than an hour after I made a post on why Reiver didn't get a response to his post of some hours previous about OC/NC, we have the circular argument reignited.

    So D&P say they sold the "business and assets". Pendant alert ….. note the use of the word "and" and its usage in common parlance.

    Darkbefordawn tells us that the "business" is the "club" … (so D&P must have sold both the "club" and its "assets")

    However even LNS tells us he doesn't know what constitutes a club when he says "it no doubt depends on individual circumstances what exactly is comprised in the undertaking of any particular Club".  However he adds that a club comprises at least "its name, the contracts with its players, its manager and other staff, and its ground". That sounds like "assets" are part of a "club" or is it a business.

    Thus if DBD is right, then LNS and I are wrong

    If LNS is right then DBD and I are wrong

    If I am right then LNS and DBD are wrong.

    Guess what? We've got a circular argument.

    The problem is that, unlike the Res 12 stuff (if it goes to CAS), there is no conclusive way to resolve or end the OC/NC argument. If Res 12 doesn't go to CAS then it will end up like OC/NC with believers and non believers, and endless circular arguments thereafter.

    Even in the Court of Session and when I've been in attendance, we have had various parties dance around the head of a pin with some repeating the "owned and operated" mantra, Rod McKenzie declining to say if Rangers was relegated for fear of having the SPL rulebook and the 5WA opened up, Charles Green's counsel saying that only a basket of assets and a trading style were bought (he should know as he bought them) and Lord Brodie telling us the that the court doesn't deal with metaphysics.

    The only hopes we have left of a legal determination are Henderson & Jones / Wavetower's floating charge claim and BDO's negligence claim against the administrators, both of which could prompt some discussion about what was bought and sold.

    Bugger! I've got myself embroiled in another pointless circular argument.  I need to take a day off.

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  33. John Clark 22nd August 2018 at 21:47

    ————————————————————————————-  

    " I find again that people are not citing the posts they are replying to or commenting on."  laughlaugh

     

     

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  34. I use a small program called printkey2000. It allows me to capture part/all of the screen and save it in various file formats.

    I have  a folder with these files which I can then copy and paste.

    I used to be able to do that on  Scottish  Football Monitor but that has gone now because there is no upload available.

    I can do it on any other site.

    https://printkey2000.informer.com/5.1/

    Just sayin like.

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  35. easyJambo 22nd August 2018 at 22:09  

    The problem is that, unlike the Res 12 stuff (if it goes to CAS), there is no conclusive way to resolve or end the OC/NC argument. If Res 12 doesn't go to CAS then it will end up like OC/NC with believers and non believers, and endless circular arguments thereafter.

     

    ================

    Its not exactly clear what the CAS involvement might be from this:

    http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11788/11441992/rangers-could-face-cas-hearing-after-successful-challenge-against-sfa&nbsp;

    An SFA statement read: "This preliminary issue raised by Rangers FC challenged the jurisdiction of the Scottish FA's Judicial Panel Disciplinary Tribunal to hear the case, and contended that the notice of complaint must be determined by the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

    "Having received submissions on 26 June the Judicial Panel Disciplinary Tribunal have issued a decision upholding the preliminary issue raised by the club.

    "The Judicial Panel Disciplinary Tribunal proposes to continue consideration of the complaint until parties consider next steps and terms of reference for any remit to CAS."

    Now are the JPDT carrying on investigating the notice of complaint whilst all parties consider the next steps on terms of reference for CAS? 

    If those terms of reference take all knowns in 2011 and 2012 into account, then although it might take longer, justice will be served whatever the outcome. However as there are enough knowns to suggest that outcome will not be to The Rangers liking and they will not be able to prevent the world (or Europe and UEFA) hearing such an outcome, then I'd be surprised if they want CAS any where near the case.

    Nope I think that all parties will be trying to negotiate themselves out of a snooker and that will be the first job of the incoming Compliance Officer.

    Celtic are aware of the position and if I were Peter Lawwell I'd be chalking my cue (Oh er missus)

     

     

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  36. Barçabhoy 22nd August 2018 at 18:49

    "..For my part OC/NC has never interested me . I don’t get involved in the argument and i’m probably not alone in that ."

    But you are of course interested in the cheating by RFC(now IL),and in how that cheating was 'undetected' for a goodly number of years by persons who, one can reasonably assert, failed in a very basic duty of their office by not 'detecting' it, or, worse, betrayed their office and Scottish Football  by not calling it out when they did detect it!

    The 5-way agreement under which our Football Governance bods ( who so signally failed to spot the cheating and/or failed to deal properly with it when spotted) signed up to the lie that 'Rangers' did not die in the way that Gretna, and Third Lanark, and other clubs which , on account of insolvency, lost their entitlement to participate in Scottish football, is believed by many of us to encapsulate the rottenness at the heart of Scottish Football. 

    I, and I think many others, believe that the cheating mentality of the SFA ( and others) which ignored/tolerated/supported  the awful sporting cheating of SDM is the same mentality which allowed and continues to allow the cheats of the present Ibrox board to claim something to which they are not now, and  never have  been, entitled to, namely, the name and sporting history of the old Rangers of my boyhood, and my father's boyhood, and my grandfather's 3 year-old-hood ,namely,  that RFC somehow survived Liquidation, hale and hearty and free from squillions of pounds of debt!

    We all want a clean sport. There are bad guys who dirtied the sport. There are even 'badder' guys who helped them. And there are even worse guys in the SMSM who facilitate them!

    In short, in my view, to be indifferent to the nonsense of TRFC Ltd being allowed to claim unearned titles and honours is not really an option: tackling that nonsense is central to re-establishing truth and integrity in our sport.

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  37. The exhaustive list of assets available for D+P to sell from the CVA Proposal, courtesy of Paul McConville:

    https://scotslawthoughts.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/rangers-cva-proposal1.pdf

    Assets in the Administration Estate

    4.11

    The assets of the Company, listed at Schedule 6, currently consist of:

    Ibrox;

    Murray Park;

    The other heritable properties and leasehold interests of the Company;

    The Player Contracts;

    The SFA Membership;

    The Company‘s share in the SPL;

    The Goodwill and intellectual property rights;

    Stock, plant and equipment and cash at bank;

    Amounts owed to the Company (other than the Player Transfer Fees);

    The High Court Proceedings; and

    The Player Transfer Fees.

    View Comment

  38. My post at 23.41: I swear on my last wee drop of Johnny Walker Red that I did draw a line separating the point I was replying to from my reply!

    If my earlier observation was unjustified because the 'fault' was not the poster's, my apologies!

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  39. Darkbeforedawn 22nd August 2018 at 22:35  

    For or what it’s worth I believe the business is the club, and the club is the badge, the history, the Rangers name, the fans etc. I think the stadium, car park, training ground etc are the assets. Rangers could move from Ibrox and still be Rangers (in much the same way as Arsenal are still Arsenal). The company can fold and as long as someone is willing to continue the “business” (aka the club) then again the club continues (in the same way as Leeds, Coventry, Rangers etc) have. Finally, if the company folds AND no one is willing to continue the “business” (aka club) or take on the assets then the club ceases to exist (in the same way Gretna or Airdrie did).

    ==========================

    I've no problem with that if that is what you believe. This issue for me is the lack a a documented definition of the "ethereal club" or the process by which such an ethereal club resurrects itself. That leaves me being much more comfortable with the club as a legal entity, not as some variable metaphysical entity that is created to suit the circumstances and the different interests of fans, owners and football authorities. Board discretion is not the answer.

    The "ethereal club" concept also takes you into franchise territory where the future of the "club" is at the mercy of the highest bidder or vested interests among the authorities. Any new owner could then relocate the "club" to some other city or town.

    The Scottish examples you quote don't really help as I think Gretna 2008 was offered the opportunity to continue the mantle of Mileson's Gretna, but declined because of what the SFA or SFL wanted to impose on them in terms of sureties. They preferred the notion of a new club with no liabilities imposed upon them.   Airdrieonians on the other hand wanted to continue but were denied by the authorities.

    How long does a business/club have to be dead before it ceases to exist?  There are plenty examples in the Junior ranks where clubs (unincorporated) go into abeyance for a season or two but are restarted with a new committee and new funding.

     

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  40. Lots of comments moved to the Bonkers Thread. I am a little disappointed that folk are responding to this Batshit crazy notion of ethereal clubs and going concerns, but if that!s what floats your boat, then hop over to the Bonkers page and fill yer boots.
    Seems to me that responses imply a belief that those who espouse this stuff actually believe it themselves. They don’t. They are merely pulling your collective plonker.

    Reiver,
    Moderation policy is simple. Truth is allowed, Stupidity isn’t! We won’t sacrifice the integrity of the blog by debating a nonsense endlessly around the Maypole. We don’t seriously entertain flat-earth discussion.

    OCNC is not remotely comparable to discussion on Res12.

    For once and for all. OCNC is not a debate or an opinion. It’s reality is based on facts, not metaphysics or sophistry.

    That’s why, save for the occasional airing of those facts, it doesn’t merit space on the main blog.

    I know some people suggested that the main blog was concerned with OCNC, but what Tris mentioned was his frustration that the myth has been imposed on us. I don’t think it was his intention to debate it.

    Anyone who wants fun with Lawman, please go to his thread on that issue, but keep it away from the real stuff.

    We also don’t have time to go in and move every comment. Further OCNC stuff for the foreseeable will just be put in moderation.

    There’s plenty of important and relevant stuff to talk about. Nobody is being censored, and if OCNC debate is popular then I am sure folk will flock to it.

    Sorry for the rant, but sleep is now required.

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  41. Barcabhoy 22nd August 2018 at 18:49  

    Reiver, the blog decides what gets debated not any one individual .

    For my part OC/NC has never interested me . I don’t get involved in the argument and i’m probably not alone in that .

    There are issues of far more importance to me , such as cheating , governance , lying to authorities, lying to fellow clubs , fit and proper suitability , refusal to comply with legal orders, and manipulation of accounts 

    ===================

    Although I have posted on UEFA's view as stated by Traverso when justifying why UEFA could not sanction the current club applying for a UEFA Licence, mostly to actually bring in someone with authority to speak on the matter, I was not that interested in the OC/NC debate either.

    However that changed a bit after listening to Celtic supporters who had spent a lot more of their life travelling the length and breadth of the UK at substantial costs to themselves, than I ever did through life circumstances, and on whom I ultimately have a team to support if from a distance.

    Putting myself in their shoes for a minute I could well understand their anger. When they looked back on games Celtic lost to a Rangers fuelled by unlawful financial steroids in tens of millions not to mention a mountain of debt never repaid that again fell on the tax payer and suffered the accompanying taunts, I began to understand why the OC/NC issue was important to them.

    But it isn't that Rangers are the same club that rankles, its that the titles they won by cheating which was what the Supreme Court effectively said, totally undermining the LNS logic of no sporting advantage, that really rankles, particularly when the very governing body that is supposed to ensure fair play not only went out of its way to ensure unfair play (and we know it did) but has the cheek to say they will not reconsider how they dealt with the matter.

    That is still the position. LNS was a sham from the word go only possible  by the non disclosure of the same information not disclosed the previous year when applying for the UEFA Licence to keep an insolvent club from going under. Two moments of deception covered up so far by the SFA.

    It is a fact that key documentation in relation to DOS ebts was kept from the LNS Commission by Duff and Phelps but with evidence pointing to the SFA as being in the know from December 2011. There is further public evidence that LNS decided his Commission need not consider the DOS ebts and side letters for reasons that are questionable.

    No 5 Way agreement is more important than reinstating the integrity to Scottish football that those involved negotiating it destroyed.

    It is significant that whilst there has been a lot of OC/NC circular argument on SFM there is very little on LNS but why it should be the focus of attention is set out here :

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6uWzxhblAt9dnVHSl9OU3RoWm8/view?usp=sharing&nbsp;

    In there and in the UEFA licence lies all that is needed to address the issues of far more importance – the cheating , untrustworthy governance , lying to authorities, lying to fellow clubs , fit and proper suitability , refusal to comply with legal orders, and manipulation of accounts. 

    If only the stomach to do so existed amongst our clubs and their leaders.

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  42. woodstein 22nd August 2018 at 23:27
    I use a small program called printkey2000. It allows me to capture part/all of the screen and save it in various file formats.I used to be able to do that on Scottish Football Monitor but that has gone now because there is no upload available.

    I can do it on any other site.

    https://printkey2000.informer.com/5.1/

    Just sayin like.
    ……………….
    Will look in to that,thanks.
    …………………
    John Clark 23rd August 2018 at 00:01
    8 0 Rate This

    My post at 23.41: I swear on my last wee drop of Johnny Walker Red that I did draw a line separating the point I was replying to from my reply!
    ……………….
    Had that problem myself.Resorted to a line of full stop’s, it kind of works.
    …………………

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  43. OK, the OC/NC debate is to end, but I have a question, I think could be classed as factual, and it comes to me as a result of the recent discussion over the notion that Rangers' history was sold to Green/Sevco. I hope the mods will bear with me.

     

    If Charles Green/Sevco (Scotland) Ltd bought Rangers Football Club, why would they need to buy the club's history? Or even suggest that they had bought the club's history (whether or not history is saleable)? Surely if you buy a football club, in whatever form, it's history comes with it! 

     

    No need to start another discussion, circular or not, it's just something for folks to bear in mind when suggesting that the inclusion of 'history' on any document means the club was indeed sold to Green/Sevco. I'd suggest it proves the exact opposite.

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  44. This is for everyone.  I know you will love it.   Brass bands the heart and soul of us all.

     

     

    And wait till you hear this.  You will love it.

     

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  45. Reiver 10.56

    The paragraph which mentions the absence of "many non-Celtic supporting contributors" is very telling imo. Looking back in the archives i was struck by the number of former posters/contributors who are missing and have been for some considerable time. I wonder if BP/Tris have been in touch with any of them to ascertain the reason why this is?. I realize here will be a certain turnover over a period of time, as personal circumstances and priorities change, but to lose several passionate, knowledgeable contributors is imo a worrying trend.

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  46. Bit quiet this morning. Everybody must be on the other thread?

     

    I see the Compliance Officer is reacting to statements made by the Motherwell Captain. Interesting to see how that turns out. 

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  47. Reiver 23rd August 2018 at 10:55  

    The subject of the D & P reports, put to me by a source that many of us believe to be a troll, is raised here because I do not believe that it has been discussed before.

    =================================

    The D&P Creditors Reports were published 6 years ago and, as each one was published, they were contemporaneously discussed on the RTC blog. Perhaps you would be better looking at the RTC archived blogs and posts.

    I retained copies of all the reports and I do occasionally refer back to them when prompted to do so, as I did when you asked about their final report.

    There is nothing new to be gleaned from a document that's been in the public domain for six years.

    The Res 12 issue, however occasionally does unearth new pieces of information or documents that have not been in the public domain, which are therefore are much more valuable to prompt new discussions, arguments, theories or whatever. e.g. the Traverso letter or legal documents relating to the tax cases.

     

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  48. Reiver 23rd August 2018 at 10:55  

    Wow!

    OK I'll abide by the ruling that the other thread is to be used but not without one last comment.

    If this site's remit is to hold the SFA to account then to reduce OC/NC to a side show is a travesty. Especially as the reason is that posters deem it to be boring.

    Res12 and OC/NC are in the same boat, they mean absolutely nothing unless they are resolved and the Res12 issues are as equally unproven facts as they have not been accepted in law, passed by Celtic or conceded by any of the culprits. Until that changes Res 12 is also a "circular " argument. Res12 has the disadvantage that it can be dismissed by authorities as a "West of Scotland thing" as it revolves around Celtic taking action. No other club can step in and approve the motion at the Celtic AGM. That does not excuse the other clubs but it is a fact. Nor does it mean I object to debating it on here, quite the opposite but to relegate(or is it a new debate that start afresh at in the bottom division) OC/NC to a thread where it will be left to die does this blog no favours. Fine, Res12's rightful place is here on the main blog but how can other subjects that are OK to discuss here even warrant a place.

    ====================

    Res12's very existence arose from facts. That those facts have been studiously avoided by the smsm and football authority until last September (and that is an opinion based on facts) does not make them any the less factual and that they are unproven is soley down to the football authorities not wanting them to be proven.

    Unlike OC/NC though the SFA left the door open to get proof when they agreed to put the UEFA Licence case to the Compliance Officer who took 8 months to find charges of non compliance based on the original facts.  That Celtic have to report to shareholders means the proving process cannot disappear without justification and the cost of investigation is not one of them.

    Its simple: do the facts that UEFA CFCB  could have uncovered had Res12 been passed in 2013, tell us if the SFA and RFC followed due process in applying for and granting the UEFA Licence and met their responsibilities under  monitoring rules and SFA acted thereafter in good faith with Celtic when it became obvious in August 2011 that there was an overdue tax issue?

    Why did none of the explanations given by the SFA tie in with known facts and why were questions and evidence supplied to them ignored?

    Answers to those questions can come from Res12 running to completion, because Celtic are accountable to shareholder and Celtic have a right as an SFA member club to seek answers for their shareholders from the SFA , there is no vehicle to get answers to the OC/NC question.

    The club AGM route is a bloody slow one to get accountability as is evident but its the only one we have unless msm suddenly find a conscience.

     

     

     

     

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  49. woodstein 23rd August 2018 at 16:00

    The post above was a test to see if the lack of uploads had a workaround and it appears it has.

    Used part of your post  easyjambo to create a JPG file then repost to SFM as a link.

    Upload facility would be easier but where there is a will there is a way.

    View Comment

  50. woodstein 23rd August 2018 at 16:23  

    At least the Dropbox link works.  I use the "snipping" tool on Windows to capture part screen images as JPG files then upload them to "Imgur" and get a share link from there.

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  51. Not much in the Court Rolls for next week.

    Two cases did catch my eye though.

    LADY WOLFFE – C Stark, Clerk

    Tuesday 28th August

    By Order Between 9.30am and 10.00am

    CA31/17 The Football Co (Scotland) Ltd v Glasgow City Council – MacRoberts LLP – Glasgow City Council (Corporate Services)

    This is an action by the company who provided the advertising screens seeking recompense from GCC for damage resulting following the pitch invasion at the 2016 Cup Final between Hibs and Rangers.

     

    The second may or may not be a "Rangers related" case.

    TO BE ALLOCATED

    Wednesday 29th August 2018

    Substantive Hearing

     P199/18 Pet: DK for Judicial Review – Clyde & Co – Anderson Strathern LLP

    I can think of one "DK" that has been involved in recent court actions, but it is probably more likely than not to be another "DK". James Blair does work for Anderson Strathern though.

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  52. Auldheid

    I agree, and have never said otherwise, it can be the answer IF it runs to a conclusion but the signs so far are that the Celtic bean counters match the bean counters at every other club in that they see no financial advantage in proceeding down that road. Not only do they see no advantage but they judge it as financial disadvantage. I think when you get to the stage of refusing the CFC board's further delays that they will become quite pro-active against the the resolution. I believe that you will see them do a TRFC and call for all "right-minded" shareholders to vote down the resolution. I don't know the make up of the share spread at Celtic but I am willing to bet that there is a majority who are finance minded rather than sport minded.

    So Res12 will probably end up in the same situation as OC/NC in that someone outwith the football authorities will need to push their case through the courts and stump up the costs for that action.

    I have only spent c.36 hours considering the D & P "history as an asset" statement but to my mind we have the opportunity to have their opinion challenged by using the government's own complaints service at https://www.gov.uk/complain-about-insolvency-practitioner . At the very least that should result in some sort of answer for or agin us. For that we don't need to stump up lawyers fees.

    In the meantime, I have asked for a explanation from Duff and Phelps on how the can sell the history to a buyer, when that history MUST also include the company's debt, and the purchaser does not settle up with the creditors. Once we get an answer or receive no answer at all the decision can be made whether to make the move formal or not. While waiting more research can be done in preparation.

    This is why I object to the relegation of the continuation subject. Had it been on the main thread I could have received assistance from those that have more knowledge on the subject than I do.

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  53. Jezz man watched the second half of that match and was less entertaining than watching paint dry sevco to win the league anyone dear me poor poor and poor.

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